RE: anti-healthcare blog.

Someone made a blog about HR 3200 (the healthcare bill) and I replied.  It was long and they might delete it, so I am making it a blog.

“With all this talk about healthcare reform, I decided I would take some time to address my issues with the proposed plan HR 3200. To begin, I urge you to write your congress person and tell them how to vote, whether you agree with me or not. The issue is, if you want to see change, you can’t sit back and wait for it to happen, you have to actively seek change. “

You get almost everything wrong.

“I think that Healthcare Reform is necessary. However, I think that making a public healthcare plan available is not a good option to solve the Healthcare situation. To begin, America was founded on capitalist principles. This means people do things for monetary gain. That being said, these principles of capitalism do not exclude the Healthcare Industry. The Healthcare Industry is a business, and is concerned with making money. It’s not a not for profit organization. This industry exists by making a profit. Would you expect to go to store and expect free food or free clothes because they are essential to living? Of course not!”

The difference is that the clothing store makes money the more people it clothes, and the health insurance company makes more money the more treatments it denies.  The cash incentive is against treating people, and as such they deny about 1 in 5 insurance claims and about 50 americans a day die because they can’t get healthcare and 60% of bankrupcies are caused by unaffordable medical bills.  It’s bleeding our country to death and you’re defending it because it makes money so it must be good.

“You understand that the store is a business and does not give out free meals and clothes. In the same way, healthcare is a business. So why in the world would it need to be free?”

It doesn’t.  It just needs to be fair.  We pay twice as much money to insurance companies as it costs to maintain our health and they turn people down for life-saving treatments.  Not so they can make ends meet, but so the CEO can have his own island when he retires.  They are making multi-billion dollar profits and refusing to pay for life saving treatments. 

And you’re fighting for their side.

“Through this blog I hope to outline some of the problems with HR 3200. “

Actually you distort it out of all recognition.

“First, every company would have to charge their employers a tax for healthcare insurance.”

I’m not sure how companies can charge their employers taxes, but okay…

“This means families with two parents working would be double taxed for health insurance for themselves and their families without receiving better coverage. Every working person would have to buy into government insurance policy whether you accept public insurance or not. If you choose not to take the insurance offered by the HR 3200, you still have to pay a 2.5% tax on it as an incentive to get covered by HR 3200.”

No, the only place in the bill the number 2.5 exists is a section saying that your employer has to pay 2.5% of their profits to provide their employers health insurance if they don’t provide them any health insurance at all, or their insurance does not comply with the law.  ALL pre-existing health insurance policies are considered “grandfathered” and are exempted from this section, so if your employer offers health insurance at all prior to this bill being enacted, they have to pay nothing.

“Companies would be charged a 2-8% income tax if they do not offer the public option. This means no matter who you are, whether you want health insurance or not, you have to pay in to the system. “

No, they would have to pay between zero and 8% (not 2 and 8) of the employees’ average pay to allow their employees to get health insurance only if they give their employees no health insurance at all.  Small businesses that make under a quarter million dollars a year are exempt, and it goes up from there on a sliding scale – not to mention that small businesses just got a tax cut so they shouldn’t be complaining.

“Furthermore, only about 11% of Americans don’t have Health Insurance and a majority of that 11% does not have it because they just choose not to do so. Last I heard, America is about liberty. People should have the liberty to buy whatever health insurance policy they want (including the choice of no insurance), not be forced to buy in to what HR 3200 offers.”

No one is forced to pay into HR3200 you dishonest person.  And most people who have no insurance can’t afford it or have pre-existing conditions.  I say we let them die.  I mean why take away their right to die, right?

“The plan would eliminate private insurance because it would have to conform to government standards, while government insurance would have no profit motive and unlimited capital – yours taxes and mine.” 

Also a lie.  The only part that is taxpayer subsidized is the part that insures those who cannot afford to pay for insurance of any kind who aren’t exactly making the insurance companies a lot of money.  Everyone else who opts into it pays premiums like any other insurance policy.  If they don’t like it, they don’t have to pay into it.  The public option no more has “unlimited funds” than regular insurance companies do.

“Obama even said that in a decade he hopes there would be no need for private insurance.”

Most likely this is a distortion, but you don’t cite a source so I can’t see for sure.

“Furthermore, it makes employers auto enroll people into the public insurance plan. Whatever happened to choice, at least now we have some. “

Nope, totally made up.  This is why she doesn’t cite sources for any of this stuff or quote the bill.

“This plan will go into action in about ten years and will cost more than a trillion dollars to enact.”

Three years* and 80 billion a year.  It has the potential to lower the nation’s healthcare costs by hundreds of billions of dollars a year, not to mention that we are already paying a lot more than 80 billion a year in inflated healthcare and insurance costs because of everyone who goes to the ER and can’t pay the bill.

“This means it’s coming out young people’s pockets, and I am NOT okay with that.”

It already is lady, and you’re apparently totally okay with it.

“The people arguing about this in Congress won’t have to worry about the amount of money that will be spent on insurance because it won’t affect them as drastically as it affects people in my age bracket.”

What?  Why will it affect you more?

“I am going to have to pay for my representation’s mistakes, and I am not fine with that. An aside, Congress people and the President also get a different plan. Why should they be determining your fate, when they don’t get the same fate?”

The same “fate”?  So you think they should take everyone in the government off of the private health insurer’s accounts overnight?  I thought you were pro-insurance company.

“Provisions within HR 3200 include a commissioner who will be appointed to decide whether a person will get treatment.”

No, they will run the program you horrible lying person.

“I don’t know about you, but I’m not fine with my fate resting on an appointed official. I’m not even okay with this position to be an elected official.”

Then move to another country. 

Seriously?  Are you that naive?

“At least with insurance you can appeal if they don’t initially accept your claim. What the commissioner decides is gospel, there is no appellant process.”

No appellant process?  It’s the US court system, the same system you use to squeeze money out of the insurance giants.  Wtf?  And the whole point of a public option is that it covers everything.

“Of course, under the commissioner would be thousands of people working for him to help aide in the decision process (at a significant cost and providing no value to your medical needs), but when it comes down to it, the commissioner has the final say on what benefits, surgeries, and treatment you can receive. Letting the government decide whether you get chemo or aspirin to alleviate pain is a terrible idea. The worst thing about the commissioner is that the commissioner rations healthcare. “

HEALTH INSURANCE COMPANIES RATION HEALTHCARE.  They deny payment for 1 in 5 procedures and kill thousands of people a year you moron.  This is just paranoid nonsense.

“While I’m not okay with paying for other American’s healthcare, I’m for sure not okay with paying for Non-americans to be treated. HR 3200 lets this happen, even though it issues a National Healthcare ID Card. The problem is, people don’t have to produce this card, which means basically anybody can get treated, and in turn I have to pay.”

Anyone can be treated for emergency care.  This is not something created by this bill, you are just pretending it is.

The bill states:

“Nothing in this subtitle shall allow Federal payments for affordability credits on behalf of individuals who are not lawfully present in the United States.”

“HR 3200 allows the government to have access to your electronic funds. What business does the government have to go into your funds? How could this possibly be a good idea? The government meddling in your bank account is invasive and not constitutional. The government has access to all American’s financial and personal records. Doesn’t this destroy privacy? “

Where does it say this?  And the IRS can already look at your financial records you stupid, stupid person.

“The government also decides how much money a doctor can make. Regardless of the doctor’s specialty, they will have an already set income.”

No, they will have a set rate of reimbursement for a procedure like ANY insurance company has you nimrod.  The government isn’t dictating their annual salary.

“Furthermore, doctors can’t invest in healthcare companies. This seems a little bit meddling. “

Um, no.  It just says that hospitals have to report what doctors are invested in them and sets up regulations to avoid insurance fraud.

“There are probably more arguments for and against HR 3200, but these are mine for now. Really, what needs to be reformed is private insurance.”

You’re against that too in this blog…

“Why create another government failure, furthermore a government failure that gets to decide whether you live, whether you receive treatment or medications, and that is going to throw us further into debt. Empirically, public healthcare has not worked, why would it be any different if the United States tried it? America needs to stick to its Capitalist roots and needs to reform private health insurance. The United States shouldn’t recreate a system when we have a system that is not fully broken. “

You are not bright.  Public healthcare does work, it doesn’t deny treatment and seniors with medicare are happier with their insurance than people with private insurers.  So far as it driving us into debt you’re not very good with math.

“What do you think about HR 3200?”

I just told you.

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About agnophilo

Nerd.
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20 Responses to RE: anti-healthcare blog.

  1. Morgane says:

    Wow, who wrote that nonsense?  Seriously.  The US pays more – both in real terms and as a percentage of its GDP – than any other country on earth for health care (except the Marshall Islands, and as I’ve explained on my own blog today, there’s a good reason for that exception).  It ranks dead last of a list of 19 developed nations in terms of avoidable deaths (links are on my blog but the research was done last year, not in 2002 like the last WHO survey).  It ranks dead last in the Commonwealth Fund research of six nations (Australia, NZ, Canada, UK, Germany and the US).  (Links on my blog, there are too many to list again.)The US system is broken.  Around 47 million people have no insurance at all, and another 25 million are under-insured.  The taxpayer is already paying over the odds for coverage.  And it’s really funny to a girl who’s grown up in two countries (Australia and the UK) which both have socialised health care (socialised doesn’t mean what they think it means, either – it just means publicly owned), and never had to worry about the cost/benefit behind going to the ER for a fractured skull or my epilepsy or my arrhythmia, or any of the other stuff I’ve had over the years, to hear the American right lying through its TEETH about what kind of health care I’ve been able to expect.  They don’t even know how royally screwed they are getting.  It’d be funny if so many people weren’t dying.Americans pay twice as much and get way, way less than the rest of us.  Of course, this is symptomatic of the real problem, which is that too many people get their news and information in soundbites from television, and if it’s more than 140 characters, as my (American) friend pointed out today, then Americans won’t listen.  So they don’t know what’s going on.

  2. Jimbo1023 says:

    I really like these “RE:” series of posts. Keep them up.I believe there was something in the bill about links to a person’s bank account (don’t ask for the source in the document, because I probably could not find it again), but it was ultimately a minute thing and definitely not how others paint it.

  3. SerenaDante says:

    Loving it, as always.

  4. LydJaGillers says:

    Pwned again!! Boo-ya!

  5. Solid rebuttal. I’d be interested to see their reply, if they can coherently form one. 

  6. epiginoskete says:

    Geez, it’s all the same misrepresentations of the bill I’m seeing everywhere. It’s that whole if you scream the lie loud enough, long enough, when the truth finally gains momentum it’ll be too late strategy, and it makes me sad how many people are being pawns to that.

  7. Great post and I completely agree with you.

  8. I would comment on this but it’d be too long. I wrote a similar “anti-healthcare” blog here that explains everything I would say in response to this and the other person’s blog.

  9. mejicojohn says:

    its all about health insurance,,, not health care,,, and common sense tells us, insurance costs more than healthcare. and from all players,, the health seekers,, the health givers,,take insurance out of the equation,, healthcare would be affordable.to take insurance out of the equation,,, of course you would need tort reform,, because thats what insurance is all about… to protect you from the legislat,,,,, i mean,,, lawyers…  one and the same.

  10. The_ATM says:

    Eight people who do really think the government will end up enacting a system like Canada’s and welcome it. ( excluding Ex_Adyto_Cordiswho’s blog entry on this is great. )  Fascinating.  Unfortunately, we will not get that.  I can read times magazine and prove some of your points wrong.  Obama said he was willing to compromise and remove public option.  So, insurance reform fail covered by a slightly progressive biased magazine.You people believe more government will solve problems introduced by the government.  ( maybe medicare makes medicine more expensive? )  If you support Obama or if you supported McBush, you believe you can solve a debt problem by spending more.  You, ladies and gentleman, are OK as our government is throwing away the capitalism bit by bit.Seehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BugRMHaL3lU to hear a intelligent discussion toward a free market solution to the health care problem.

  11. Morgane says:

    @The_ATM – I think you’re misinformed.  The US spends twice as much as a % of its GDP on health care than the UK or Australia, and yet trails far behind in preventable deaths.  Your health care system doesn’t work because people can’t access it.  “Socialist” health care (which just means publicly owned) is cheaper and more successful. 

  12. agnophilo says:

    @Morgane – It’s more that if it’s more than a sound bite they don’t put it on tv, than it is that americans don’t listen.  Many americans are intelligent, we’re just not the common denominator.  And I made a link in the blog to the original.@Jimbo1023 – Of course it was.  It always is.  And thanks : D@SerenaDante – @LydJaGillers – Thanks : D@ElliottStrange – Someone on their blog (edited my blog with a link to the original) replied, but I wouldn’t call it a solid rebuttal.@epiginoskete – Yes, it is very sad.  I’m disappointed that when you show someone they’re being lied to they can’t even get pissed off.  When someone tries to manipulate me I say fuck them.  They eat it up, because it reinforces their bias.  People are fucked.@princess_riceball – Thanks : D@Ex_Adyto_Cordis – I will check it out, but I am in a lil’ bit of a hurry atm.@mejicojohn – Yes, though comments are not periods and elipses are only 3 periods : P  Sorry, grammar nazi.@Morgane – Yeah I know.  His claims have no bearing on reality.  Medicare is more expensive than average health insurance because it covers those with the highest medical costs that regular health insurance is supposed to cover but won’t.

  13. I enjoyed reading how you got progressively more irritated at this person as you went on.Good entry.

  14. An interesting piece.  Can you back up any of your comments by citing a source for them? 

  15. agnophilo says:

    @methodElevated – Thanks.@jeremiahstears – Sure, all of them.  This is an old blog and it would be time consuming to re-write it with sources, so are there any few parts in particular I could give sources for?

  16. @agnophilo – If you could provide some references for this statements I woud be most grateful.the only place in the bill the number 2.5 exists is a section saying that your employer has to pay 2.5% of their profits to provide their employers health insurance if they don’t provide them any health insurance at all, or their insurance does not comply with the law.  The cash incentive is against treating people, and as such they deny about 1 in 5 insurance claims and about 50 americans a day die because they can’t get healthcare and 60% of bankrupcies are caused by unaffordable medical bills. 

  17. agnophilo says:

    @jeremiahstears – Will do.  “theonly place in the bill the number 2.5 exists is a section saying thatyour employer has to pay 2.5% of their profits to provide theiremployers health insurance if they don’t provide them any healthinsurance at all, or their insurance does not comply with the law. “Whoa, apparently I got this partly wrong and so did the person I was responding to.This is weird, I could have sworn it said that businesses had to pay the tax.  But no, it’s saying if you don’t have “acceptible” health insurance (which is loosely defined and includes all pre-existing health insurance policies, all government insurance policies etc) you have to pay a 2.5% tax (of anything above and beyond your deductibles, so it is only a tax on your income over like 8k or so) which helps pay for the public option if you get sick and can’t get insurance, and acts as an incentive to get insurance, whether it’s the public option or not.  The person I was responding to however is lying their ass off when they say that people with insurance are being double-taxed and people with insurance have to pay this tax as an incentive to drop private insurance in favor of the public option.  To find this section of the bill google hr 3200 and find the bill (it takes 2 seconds) hit CTR + F and search “2.5” (minus quotes).  The first hit will be “72.5”, the second will be the section in question, section 401.”Thecash incentive is against treating people, and as such they deny about1 in 5 insurance claims” Here is one article about it.  Sorry, it’s in google’s cache of the webpage, the original article wouldn’t show up.”and about 50 americans a day die because theycan’t get healthcare” It’s actually up to 125 a day.  Source.”and 60% of bankrupcies are caused by unaffordablemedical bills. “Source.Bear in mind these websites are not where I got the information, just credible sources to let you know I’m not making stuff up.

  18. Finally got time to check out what you gave me. Whoa, apparently I got this partly wrong and so did the person I was responding to.This is weird, I could have sworn it said that businesses had to pay the tax.  But no, it’s saying if you don’t have “acceptible” health insurance (which is loosely defined and includes all pre-existing health insurance policies, all government insurance policies etc) you have to pay a 2.5% tax (of anything above and beyond your deductibles, so it is only a tax on your income over like 8k or so) which helps pay for the public option if you get sick and can’t get insurance, and acts as an incentive to get insurance, whether it’s the public option or not.  The person I was responding to however is lying their ass off when they say that people with insurance are being double-taxed and people with insurance have to pay this tax as an incentive to drop private insurance in favor of the public option.   Ok, we all make mistakes.  Correct it and move on.  The other person may have made the same type of unintentional error.  Cut them some slack and ask them where they got that idea from.   “The cash incentive is against treating people, and as such they deny about1 in 5 insurance claims” Here is one article about it.  Sorry, it’s in google’s cache of the webpage, the original article wouldn’t show up. This was an interesting article but I would like to point out that the information is about Californian insurers only.  The way it was stated in your blog sounds like it is a national rate.  The Huffington Post Infestation Fund ran an article that stated the denial rate is largely unknown since insurers aren’t required to report that data to state or federal authorities in any state except California.  In testimony before a House subcommittee, AHIP stated that after examining 700 million claims submitted by 19 companies, the rate was 2.36%. You can read the article at.http://huffpostfund.org/stories/2009/09/health-care-number-claims-denied-remains-mysteryAlso, apparently there was no distinguishing between claims that were wrongly denial and claims that were legitimately denied in the CNA’s article.  I would suspect that the rate would be lower than the 21% that was stated..   “and about 50 americans a day die because theycan’t get healthcare” It’s actually up to 125 a day.  Source. I traced your source back to the Harvard report and looked at the data.  To be honest, the calculations that they made are a bit confusing to me so I am in no position to dispute them.  However I would like to point out the number the researchers gave is an estimation of deaths, not an actual number..  If we use the hazard indexes generated by the study, we can say that 41,625 Americans die each year because they are males, 45,00 Americans die each year because they are unemployed, 114,750 because they smoke, 47,250 because they used to smoke and 42,750 because they have 6 or more alcoholic drinks/week  http://pnhp.org/excessdeaths/health-insurance-and-mortality-in-US-adults.pdf 60% of all bankrupcies are caused by unaffordablemedical bills. “Source. I can’t comment about this since I’ve been unable to access the link but I’ll keep trying.  Bear in mind these websites are not where I got the information, just credible sources to let you know I’m not making stuff up. I would like to see the websites where you got your information if that is possible.

  19. agnophilo says:

    @jeremiahstears – “Finally got time to check out what you gave me.”Alrighty.”Ok, we allmake mistakes.  Correct it and move on.  The other person may have madethe same type of unintentional error.  Cut them some slack and ask themwhere they got that idea from.  “Fair point.”Thiswas an interesting article but I would like to point out that theinformation is about Californian insurers only.  The way it was statedin your blog sounds like it is a national rate.  The Huffington PostInfestation Fund ran an article that stated the denial rate is largelyunknown since insurers aren’t required to report that data to state orfederal authorities in any state except California.”  You think in states where the information is kept private it is likely to be lower?”In testimonybefore a House subcommittee, AHIP stated that after examining 700million claims submitted by 19 companies, the rate was 2.36%. You canread the article at.http://huffpostfund.org/stories/2009/09/health-care-number-claims-denied-remains-mystery“Yes, claims they volunteered.  Did they volunteer 100% of their claims or what?”Also,apparently there was no distinguishing between claims that were wronglydenial and claims that were legitimately denied in the CNA’s article. I would suspect that the rate would be lower than the 21% that wasstated.”They claimed that nearly all denied claims were duplicate claims.  I doubt that..   “Itraced your source back to the Harvard report and looked at the data. To be honest, the calculations that they made are a bit confusing to meso I am in no position to dispute them.”  Haha, yet you will give it your best anyway.”However I would like to pointout the number the researchers gave is an estimation of deaths, not anactual number..  If we use the hazard indexes generated by the study,we can say that 41,625 Americans die each year because they are males,45,00 Americans die each year because they are unemployed, 114,750because they smoke, 47,250 because they used to smoke and 42,750because they have 6 or more alcoholic drinks/week  http://pnhp.org/excessdeaths/health-insurance-and-mortality-in-US-adults.pdfYou know men statistically die earlier than women, right?  Men do die earlier because they are men.  As do smokers, drinkers and unemployed people, almost all of whom have no health insurance, and many have no money for out-of-pocket treatment.”I can’t comment about this since I’ve been unable to access the link but I’ll keep trying. “Link works fine for me.  Maybe it was down for awhile.”I would like to see the websites where you got your information if that is possible.”I don’t remember everywhere I heard something, sorry.

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