For Julie, Who Loves It When I Yell At Religious People [Final Update].

I saw this blog by spokenthruscott, and before getting too far into reading it was just struck by how dogmatic it was, he wasn’t humbly stating beliefs so much as declaring as facts countless things which no one could possibly know.

So I tried not to be rude but felt the urge to say something, so I said:

“Imagine if I made claims like you make about god, but about aliens.  What they want from you, what they like, don’t like, what their plans for humanity are etc.  Imagine I stated all of it as fact and said you must take it on faith.  How would you view my claims?

I’m not trying to be a jerk, and you don’t have to answer if you want.  It’s just odd that religions are exempted from having to support their claims like everyone else has to.  A scientist would never get away with the claims any priest or psychic or theologian gets away with.”

He then proceeded to basically ignore my point and blather at me that his beliefs are true, and yeah, here’s the rest of the exchange for those that like when I get fed up and yell at religious people.  I might update it later if they reply (and don’t just block me).

His text is regular, mine is bolded:

Really aliens, not the giant spaghetti monster lol?  I never said you must take the faith, and honestly this speaks more to Christians who are stagnant in their faith.  Each person has free will to decide if they are to follow Jesus.  But to answer your question, aliens didn’t make me, God did, so when I decide to put away sin for a life following God, it’s not about debating his existence, or even debating theology, but rather it’s acting in faith, praying for God to give me his plan for me daily and obey his commandments, being content where he has placed me and working together as a team with my family of believers.

Way to not answer my simple question.

 I answered your question, I said I am not here to debate theology or beliefs, but rather to move forward with God’s will.  But because your so persistent, let me give you an answer of your liking.  Alien’s didn’t create the universe, they didn’t create you and me.  They don’t tell us how to live.  They don’t give us a way to communicate with them, and they don’t love us and guide our lives if we follow them.  They don’t heal people, they don’t revive us of our sinful ways.  They don’t give us wisdom and transform the way we think.  They don’t answer what we ask of them, and they don’t give us any plans they have for us, nor do they have the authority to because they didn’t create us.  So I view your claims the same way I view a persons claims that we just randomly came into existence void of any creator.

You’re really starting to annoy me.  You’re deliberately being dense and refusing to see the very simple point that I am making.

I’m sorry.  What exactly do you want me to say?  I see your simple point, but considering both the things I wrote before my answer and The Holy Spirit in me, there is no comparison.

Claiming fantastic things as fact which have no supporting evidence is not more reasonable because you believe the things you’re claiming.  A UFO nut could just declare that the aliens are real and blah blah blah, that would not be a comeback if you pointed out that they have no evidence to back up what they’re saying.

If you want to understand what I’m trying to explain to you (which I suspect you do not, at all) watch this.

If not, then please don’t respond.

[Below he bolds some things in his response, it’s not me talking]

Ok, I watched it.  It’s kind of old so I hope you don’t think this is the first time I have heard this argument.  But to respond, first, in order to take that position, he takes God out of his position of creator, and reduces God to a formula which would reveal the same results each time.  Reducing God to a formula denies him of his sovereignty, which in turn strips him of his authority over everything in the universe.  So when this video talks about everything must have proof, and everything must be tested and here are the conditions, well that’s man’s rules.  But there is something greater than rules created by man, which is rules created by God, and God has authority over man.  God even explains to us in the bible, his terms in which he reveals himself to us.  He explains why he doesn’t reveal himself to us:

Isaiah 59:2 –

But your iniquities have separated you from your God; your sins have
hidden his face from you, so that he will not hear.

and

Luke 10:21 –

At that time Jesus, full of joy through the Holy Spirit, said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because
you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed
them to little children. Yes, Father, for this was your good pleasure.

even Jesus had authority to answer and deny answering question at his will

Mark 12:27,33

They arrived again in
Jerusalem, and while Jesus was walking in the temple courts, the chief
priests, the teachers of the law and the elders came to him. “By what authority are you
doing these things?” they asked. “And who gave you authority to do
this?”

So they answered Jesus, “We don’t know.”
      Jesus said, “Neither
will I tell you by what authority I am doing these things.”

God goes on to show us how to seek him and receive him in return.  (He explains that the Holy Spirit is within us, so it’s not about the condition of the atmosphere, the lighting, the music, or what someone says.  Rather it’s the condition of the heart and the willingness of us to let the Holy Spirit be in total control.  There are times, when I am running the media during church service, that most of the congregation is in the presence of God, but I am not.  It’s not because I don’t believe, rather my heart and my mind is focused on controlling the music slides and the lighting, not focusing on God.)

Luke 17:20-21

Jesus replied, “The kingdom of God does not come
with your careful observation,nor
will people say, ‘Here it is,’ or ‘There it is,’ because the kingdom of
God is within you.”

Finally, he also shows us that when we have faith and lack doubt, is when he answer prayers and speaks to us.

James 1:2-8

Consider it pure joy, my brothers, whenever you face trials of many
kinds, because you know
that the testing of your faith develops perseverance. Perseverance must finish its
work so that you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything. If any of you lacks wisdom, he
should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and
it will be given to him. But
when he asks, he must believe and not doubt, because he who doubts is
like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed by the wind. That man should not think he
will receive anything from the Lord; he is a double-minded man, unstable in all he
does.

[bear in mind at this point he still hasn’t answered my question]

“If not, then please don’t respond.”

It’s not that I don’t understand, I wasn’t always a Christian.  I spent many years denying God.  Rather you want me to reduce something I’ve already become a part of to your level.  God word is already a living testimony in my life, and continues to be each day.

At this point someone named heavymetalgoat chimed in:

I think he’s just upset because he’s not getting the reaction he wanted. :p

And he replied:

Well I understand where he’s coming from I used to be the same exact way.  It’s nothing new.  I spent many years finding as much dirt on the Catholic church as I could, just to spite my parents for making me go to church as a kid. I’m still a little biased against Catholicism too.

To which I responded:

  @SpokenThruScott – No, I don’t “deny god”, nor was I asking you to reduce yourself to my level you condescending shithead.  I was simply asking you to mentally engage at all even a little bit with what I was saying, or if you weren’t willing to do that to at least not waste my time.  You chose the third option of completely ignoring me, condescending to and insulting me and throwing a bunch of scripture at me. 

@heavymetalgoat – I wasn’t after a reaction, just an actual intelligent conversation and not a neurotic response from someone who read my question with one eye closed so it wouldn’t infect his hermetically sealed brain. 

@SpokenThruScott – Yes, another lovely trait of douchebag christians like yourself (and no, I don’t mean all christians are douchebags, just the ones like you).  You spit on and condescend to people you don’t know and have just met to convince yourself that you don’t have to listen to them and that what they say is wrong before they even say it.  No, you were never like me.  As if you know anything about me.

Yeah, that’s it so far.  But yeah, what a douchebag.

[Edit: And now, the rest of the conversation]

Why so angry?  I was fully mentally engaging in what you say, but do you really expect I was just going to throw out all knowledge of God from his word and in my life?  It’s hard to say I was ignoring you if I spent the last 3 hours responding to your comments.  And to be fair, I’m sorry I said “your level”, it wasn’t meant to be a personal insult rather I should have said “your position”.  But either way reducing is what you require of me is it not, to avoid using scripture or personal experience would be to reduce it from my knowledge?  God explains who he is in his scripture, why would I not use it, you technically “threw” videos at me.  It seems to me, between “condescending shithead” and “douchebag”, you have the upper hand on insults. 

I did listen to you, I’ve just heard your argument before, I hope you weren’t expecting some kind of epiphany.  And to respond “No, you were never like me.  As if you know
anything about me.” well I can only say by how you have acted on my blog, but it looks like to came up with some conclusions of your own about who I am, when you said “and no, I don’t mean all Christians are
douchebags, just the ones like you”.

My conclusions about you were based on your words, not the fact that you are christian.  Your conclusions about me were based on the fact that I’m an atheist and therefore must have been identical to you when you were not christian.  Which is ridiculous and insulting.  Not to mention the fact that you got it completely wrong.

I accept your apology for the”my level” thing.

So far as knowledge, you are not using the word correctly.  You do not have knowledge of any of these things.  Words like knowledge and fact refer to things which can be objectively verified, which is to say confirmed outside of your head (as opposed to subjective convictions).  And no, scripture is not verification of fact, proof etc and you acknowledge this when it comes to every religion other than your own.

And you may have spent time responding to me, but you were typing up an evangelical form letter, not answering my simple question.  Which was if I claimed to know that there were aliens, and what they were like, what they wanted you to do with your life, what their plans were for humanity etc, and said I had no evidence to back that up, what would you think of my claims?

I didn’t ask about god and jesus and scripture. I asked what you would think about me and my words if I made those secular claims.

My conclusions were also based on what you wrote, not because your an atheist, but the way you approach me to dispute and draw attention away from my message, and the continual psychological/scientific arguments you provide.  My phrase, “exactly the same”, of course can only reflect how you act in this post and on your blog.

Knowledge does apply and is confirmed outside my head daily, if I never saw external results of God moving in my life and in our church, it would be more difficult to stand as firm in my faith.

Ok, to literally answer your question, I would deny it because God has already verified in my life to be authority over creation.

I see your point, you want me to answer without God being apart of the equation, but that’s just reality, God is apart of my life, and his Holy Spirit is within me.  Now I can go back to a time when God was not apart of my life and probably would have research into it myself, and most like would have not responded.

Then I gave the following in-line response:

“My conclusions were also based on what you
wrote, not because your an atheist, but the way you approach me to
dispute and draw attention away from my message, and the continual
psychological/scientific arguments you provide.” 

I didn’t make a single scientific or psychological argument in any of my comments before you started generalizing about me.  I said a scientist wouldn’t get away with making unsupported claims that a theologian or a psychic get away with, which you may have half-read as something to do with psychology.  Or you’re being disingenuous and claiming that comments made after your insulting remarks were what you based your earlier remarks on.

“My phrase, “exactly the
same”, of course can only reflect how you act in this post and on your
blog.”

It’s still crap.

“Knowledge does apply and is confirmed outside my head daily,
if I never saw external results of God moving in my life and in our
church, it would be more difficult to stand as firm in my faith.”

I did a blog about that here.  And this is as impressive as the fact that other people see “external results of the aliens/CIA/allah/vishnu/etc moving in their life”. 

“Ok,
to literally answer your question, I would deny it because God has
already verified in my life to be authority over creation.  I see
your point, you want me to answer without God being apart of the
equation, but that’s just reality, God is apart of my life, and his Holy
Spirit is within me.  Now I can go back to a time when God was not
apart of my life and probably would have research into it myself, and
most like would have not responded.”

That’s like rejecting the idea that a dictator has plans for conquering your country because god is the “authority” over creation so governments don’t exist.  It’s asinine, and you’re just avoiding the issue at hand.  Again.

You are refusing to state the obvious because if you admit the simple, basic truth that claiming fantastic things without evidence is not reasonable then you might have to look in the mirror for two seconds and think about the fact that you do it all the time.

—–

I read your post, you bring up a lot of false Gods created by man, but there is only one God.  Your post makes a lot of assumption of how God moves in our lives.  He is sovereign, and not a formula.  He can decide to answer a prayer or not based on his will.  So to assume, that we contribute everything that happens to God and to what we prayed denies his sovereignty.  We are told to pray according to his will, which he reveals to us, and in line with the word.  So, for example, praying for Obama’s death would be done in vain, because it goes against his word which says in Romans 13, respect your leaders.  Governments do exist, our leaders are instituted by God, which is one reason why Christians shouldn’t get wound up in politics, I wrote about it here, you actually commented on it.

I am not refusing to state the obvious, I’m just not giving the answer you want according to YOUR assumed obvious.  I already answered in my forth response.

Yeah I’m not even going to bother with you anymore.  You refuse to grapple with anything I say and just spout your own theology as if you didn’t even hear a word I said.  Which lets be honest, you pretty much didn’t.

Good luck with not being able to absorb new ideas.

And as an aside, here’s heavymetalgoat’s last comment to me and my response:

Scientist:
–noun
an expert in science, esp. one of the physical or naturalsciences.

Theologian:
–noun
a person versed in theology, which is “The disciplined study of religious questions, such as the nature of God, sin, and salvation.”

A scientist can’t get away with telling people to take his findings “on faith” because that’s not his job. His study is of the physical world, whereas a theologian studies the unseen. If you’re going to listen to and/or read theologians, you should know what you’re getting into in the first place.

So asserting fantastic claims as fact without any basis is by definition the job of a theologian and that makes it okay?

Using that reasoning stealing things is the definition of what it means to be a thief so it’s not wrong when a thief does it because it’s not a thief’s job to obey the law.

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About agnophilo

Nerd.
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45 Responses to For Julie, Who Loves It When I Yell At Religious People [Final Update].

  1. YouToMe says:

    You are awful ๐Ÿ™‚ but thanks for the dedication. im rec’ing this so ppl might perhaps understand some of the frustrations atheists have with how we christians respond via debate.

  2. tsh44 says:

    Wow, I don’t like yelling, never really have. I’d leave you some lollipops and rainbows but they don’t have those on xanga. I hope your voice has recovered and your blood pressure gone down now?

  3. agnophilo says:

    @YouTOme – : )  To be fair he just apologized for the “your level” comment.  But yeah.@tsh44 – Har.  Virtually yelling.

  4. i agree with julie. you’re adorable with your hackles up.

  5. anaraug says:

    I’m always simultaneously impressed and confused by you — confused because I can’t understand why you care so much about people’s false and/or meaningless beliefs.  I’ve tried, but I just can’t get myself to engage them in debate.  Instead I just sit around and laugh at them, but at the same time I agree with 99% of what you say.So I think that equates to “adorable”, so I’m in Julie and Phil’s camp.Actually I just thought about it a bit.  Maybe I should laugh at them in comments on their pages instead of just out loud in real life.  Would that make me a douche?

  6. YouToMe says:

    @agnophilo - but yeah ;). thats nice. I also find it nice how phil has finally expressed his affection for ya.:P

  7. YouToMe says:

    @anaraug - ive never been camping, but you can hang out with us anytime ๐Ÿ™‚

  8. YouToMe says:

    Hahah. I did not see the cartoon until now.

  9. agnophilo says:

    @YouTOme – Which one is phil?@YouTOme – Just added it.

  10. agnophilo says:

    @complicatedlight – : )  Hackles you say.@anaraug – I feel the urge to argue with people like this dude because beliefs affect the world, and I live in a country where george bush got a second term because he waved the bible around and got enough votes from people who believe things for bad reasons.  Because I can serve in the military and give my life for a country that won’t elect me to public office because I’m not christian.  Because gay people would be better off if religious people thought about their beliefs instead of just getting off on them.And yeah you’d be a douche, or not, depending how you went about it.

  11. YouToMe says:

    @agnophilo - oh i see. Phil is complicated light

  12. agnophilo says:

    @YouTOme – Alrighty.  Hi phil : )

  13. Sounds like My discussions with my buddy Nidan. We don’t even discuss theology or religion but secular things.The disengagement is what drives me insane. Friggin rude really.

  14. agnophilo says:

    @YouTOme – The blog says zero rec’s.  Did you forget to rec’ it or is my counter busted?  Bear in mind you so don’t have to rec’ it.

  15. agnophilo says:

    @tendollar4ways – Yeah.  They’re basically talking to themselves.

  16. @agnophilo – what do you mean, which one is phil? sheesh. i’ll have you know i’m your patron saint; i’m a believer that supports your positions. A LITTLE RESPECT, PLEASE. 

  17. oh. nevermind.hi mark.  

  18. agnophilo says:

    @complicatedlight – Patron saint?  Think a bit highly of yourself do you? : P  Yeah I recognize you, just wasn’t sure about first names is all.

  19. heh. NO FIRST NAMES PLEASE.

  20. oh. i forgot to mention you’re even *more* adorable when you’re confused. 

  21. YouToMe says:

    I recd it. And have put up my defense shields

  22. SerenaDante says:

    “Could you please explain why you believe this?””JESUS!””Er… that’s not an explanation.””JESUS!””Dude, I’m asking you to do something pretty simple.””JESUS!””Omfg you’re retarded.””You’re close-minded.”~A normal conversation with these sorts of people. I’m not really surprised, though I hate that it still pisses me off how stupid these people are.

  23. @SerenaDante – Lolololol, reminds me of an episode of Family Guy, where Lois runs for mayor.

  24. agnophilo says:

    @YouTOme – : )@schallerbrandon – Nice to know.  Yeah I put vids up and they get like no hits, but then I write something and everyone reads it.@SerenaDante – I hear ya.  Just when I think I’ve learned it’s not worth bothering I get sucked into another debate, lol.@the_rocking_of_socks – I vaguely remember that one, but I’m sure it’s amusing : )

  25. It is really odd that videos are generally not appreciated. 

  26. agnophilo says:

    @schallerbrandon – I know.  Even awesome ones.@the_rocking_of_socks – : )  I remember now.  Yes, very good.

  27. At least we now have a good understanding of what causes people to overlook/avoid (what is to us) plainly visible reason and fact. Now we just need to figure out how to fix that…(edit) I feel that “address” is a more suitable word than “fix” for this circumstance.

  28. At the risk of being ultra obnoxious, a quote from Nietzche (oh! oh the cliche!! ๐Ÿ˜‰  ) …. You, however, if your belief makes you blessed then appear to be blessed! Your faces have always been more injurious to your belief than our objections have! If these glad tidings of your Bible were written on your faces, you would not need to insist so obstinately on the authority of that book… As things are, however, all your apologies for Christianity have their roots in your lack of Christianity; with your defense plea you inscribe your own bill of indictment.  I look this up so often I should memorize it.

  29. asrial86 says:

    Wonderful.  He plainly did not want to admit that his claims are unsubstantiated and just as feasable as unicorns.  That’s why he beat around the bush forever.  Because he doesn’t want to admit that he’s got nothin.

  30. asrial86 says:

    @anaraug – I’m the same, I just can’t be bothered to debate with people anymore.  It’s so useless and it goes no where.  I just sit back and watch things like this and giggle to myself happily.

  31. agnophilo says:

    @NoGraySunflowers – Interesting.  I like his quote “The last christian died on the cross.”@haloed – Yup.@haloed – Yeah.  I generally argue against anti-science propaganda for the sake of the propagandist’s readers who might get sucked in by nonsense.

  32. asrial86 says:

    @agnophilo – that’s definitely good, I guess I just don’t have the energy to do it anymore.

  33. agnophilo says:

    @haloed – I don’t a lot of the time either.

  34. cringercat says:

    Don’t waste your time arguing with idiots. They never get it. I think you hit the nail on the head. He couldn’t engage with you the way you asked him to because it would require him to discredit himself.

  35. YouToMe says:

    lean on me. then william shatner. lol

  36. agnophilo says:

    @cringercat – Yup.@YouTOme – : )  Both very good.

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