More Creationist Arguments.

I responded in length to a creationist’s blog here, and here is my response.  It’s worth reading if only for the science in my rebuttal:

“Proof for the Bible:
Humanity is on a 7 day clock, and are designed for a rest day. Other things have been tried, but it just doesn’t work in the long run. Why?”

This is just you assuming every culture in the world is identical to yours or inferior, with no basis.  It “doesn’t work”?  Wtf does that even mean?  Many places in the world don’t even have wrist watches, let alone calendars.  The 7 day week was derived from 1/4th of the lunar cycle because people used the moon to mark time so they know how long they have to harvest their crops before winter, not because god said so.  And the 7 day week is popular largely because the romans made it so, you know, when they conquered half the planet.

“The human population clock – run it backwards, and it runs out right about the time when Noah and family were on the ark. 2,000 B.C. roughly”

No, it doesn’t.  In any possible sense.  I’d like to see your math though.

“The oldest biological items such as the Barrier reefs and the oldest trees and the like all work back toward the same rough time period: 2,000 B.C.”

The oldest trees date back to about 7,000 B.C. and the oldest colony of clonal trees (that is trees that reproduce by cloning conjoined trees under ground with their roots) took an estimated minimum of 80,000 years to grow (link).  Dating it back to at least 78,000 B.C.

“The Moon’s continuing journey away from the Earth in inches per century… run it backward, and how many years has it been since the Moon was floating under the crust of the earth?”

The moon was never floating under the crust of the earth, though it’s mass mostly originated from a mars-sized impact with earth 4.5 billion years ago, give or take.

“Scientists’ time frames for biological life would have to allow for unshod Earth animal footprints under the dust of the far side of the Moon (which makes NO sense for them OR us lol).”

You’re right, that makes no sense.  One wonders why you are saying it.

“The great deserts are all 4,000 years or less in age.”

I googled “oldest desert” and the first hit was the nambi desert, 55,000,000 years old.  But even if the oldest deserts were a few thousand years old, that would not imply a young earth, as a lot can change over an ice age or two. 

“Here’s a neat one – given the supposedly continuous nature of things, why isn’t Niagara Falls somewhere near England, statistically, EVEN figuring for the ice flows of the ice age, before that there should have been water going downhill, right?”

This is a kent hovind argument.  Before the water of niagra falls was diverted to generate power which slowed the rate of erosion, it was about 1.16 meters per year.  This began during the end of the last ice age about 10,000 years ago.  Do the math and that’s 11 and a half kilometers.  The distance between niagra falls and england is over seven thousand kilometers.  Work it out.

“The Grand Canyon created by millions of years of water flowing uphill from the entering spot to the highlands in the center… and that’s the ONLY way the offical million year history of Grand Canyon can work”

No, the grand canyon has had many rivers flowing through it over many geological eras with many sources, and has seen mountains come and go.  The colorado river to this day has many different sources.  This creationist tripe about water having to flow uphill and the colorado river never having changed from it’s current state is laughed at by actual geologists.

“- 6th Day Creationists say that the flood caused a HUGE water pileup behind what was MAINLY at that time a huge mud dam – fast and furious cut through by billions of gallons of water in a few days following the first breach over the top of the wall.”

This makes no sense on many different levels.  If the flood was caused by rain, wouldn’t both sides of the “mud dam” fill up at the same rate, negating the pressure on each side?  And where did this giant mud dam come from?  And if the entire world flooded, why aren’t there grand canyons everywhere?  Did all of the water magically recede in one straight line?  Well, one incredibly twisty-turny 300 mile long line.  And where did it go?  And if the entire world flooded (and then god what, pulled the plug at the bottom of the ocean?) and the flood waters inexplicably receding is what caused the canyon to form, why would it carve through mountains of impenetrable rock over a mile deep in one long line in one region of one continent in the world, but not even touch the surrounding topsoil?

[Edit: the flood account and the waters receding seems to only make sense in light of a flat earth from which water can “drain” afterward.]

“All those ‘fossil’ animals – coelecanths and fossil sharks and oversize squid, etc… that keep popping up. Alive.”

I fail to see what this has to do with anything.

“All those animals that have multiple modifications ALL working together to make a definite activity specific to that animal, and NOT working if coming piecemeal (favorite example: woodpecker – superhard bill, shock absorber behine the bill, desire to beat its’ head against trees to get food. take ANY one of those away and you have NOTHING better than the original animal, and give the animal the desire to beat it’s head against wood for food WITHOUT BOTH of the other two, and you just get a dead bird.)”

It doesn’t take much imagination to work out possible transitions from an insect-eating bird that pecks at rotten logs etc for food, to one with a harder, pointier beak that can peck into soft wood of some live trees, to one with a hardier skull which can take more wear and tear allowing it to gradually expand it’s available food sources to many different types of trees.  It’s not as if it’s beak would have to go from pecking water to cutting diamonds in a single step.  Though that’s how creationists like to picture it, as an impassable chasm.

“It just piles up – distance from the sun, type of sun, density, Moon and tidesm,”

There are thousands of trillions of planets and moons, a minute fraction of which (though still a ridiculously large number) fall into our configuration.  There are planets just in our solar system too hot, cold, far/near from the sun, too dense, too big, too small, without the right atmosphere etc etc for human life.  Is that bad design on god’s part?  Or did we just fall in the middle of a large spectrum?

“biological items GALORE, miraculous historical items – just wade through U.S. history since the European invasions, and you get AMAZING levels of weirdness – things that could NEVER happen statistically, water’s ice floats,”

So wait, do you deny the existence of large quantities of ice or deny that ice floats?  I’m confused.

“humanity’s desire for Justice, Love, Mercy (none of these make real sense without a Creator who backs these ideas),”

All of these have obvious evolutionary advantages and are thus easily explainable biologically.  And none of these impulses are unique to humans, some sort of instinctive moral compass is shared by all social mammals.  So yeah, no.

“how mathematics can describe so much of the physical world (including music and art!),”

So numbers are magical?  Your standards for the divine are very low.  If I sneeze does that constitute a miracle?

“the fact that matter in the universe is NOT consistent with a start from explosion…”

The big bang was not and is not an explosion in the chemical sense.  And everything in the universe is consistent with the big bang which is simply a description of the behavior of the universe as it is unfolding right now, before our eyes.

“The mind boggles. At least mine does. Some of you think I’m blowing hot air….”

Your mind is not boggling, all of these arguments are unoriginal.  Your mind isn’t even a factor, and you won’t be swayed by even one of my counter-points.  Because your mind takes a backseat to your heart, which wants to believe.

“Proof for evilution:

All sorts of ‘proto-human’ skeletons. Many of which have been disproved as anything but hoaxes, and the rest having so little in common that it takes the likes of a science fiction story to connect them. Lucy is a primate with heavier, more human leg bones… So? Many tree dweller primates versus land dwelling primates show that same difference based only on preference of trees versus land as home. It just doesn’t wash.”

“So?”  That’s your argument?  Total ignorance of the science or why any fossil means anything?  The reason fossils are a big deal to evolution is that scientists find them after using the theory of evolution to predict exactly what they will look like, what strata they will be found in and how old they will be.  And a transitional fossil isn’t something a scientist shrugs at and says “derr, I think this looks like this other one”.  Zoologists, biologists, geneticists and the like classify all living things by their common characteristics. This is where concepts like species, genus, family etc come from in taxonomy, they are a description of how closely related two creatures are, physically and genetically in the tree of life.  The tree of life is like a family tree, it branches out into different groups.  Transitional fossils are fossils which have the characteristics of two or more modern groups, and thus indicate a precursor to both groups.  Thus by observing life as it is and plugging in the theory of evolution and common ancestry, scientists can test the theory by predicting what sorts of species we will find, what they will look like, where we will find them geographically and how old they will be.  And countless fossils have been found in this manner.  The ability to make successful predictions lends tremendous credibility to a scientific theory.  But the only prediction of the creationist model is that none of these fossil species should exist at all, and that is of course false.

“The horse evilution: disproved completely by the sixties. It’s a lie. Count the number of ribs, if you doubt me.”

No, it wasn’t. Creationists lie.  And the number of ribs varies among individuals of any species.  About 1 in 200 humans for instance has an extra rib.

“The characteristics of extinct animals preserved only as skeletons and occasional hide pressure against the dirt that entombed them = we don’t know what color they were, how their organs were designed, whether they were warm or cold blooded, or even if they had a meat or vegetable neural system. apart from bones and eggs, it’s almost ALL guesswork!”

No, it’s not.  But you’d have to know a lot about taxonomy, genetics etc to know why and I’ve already spent enough time educating you (most likely a waste of time, you will probably delete this anyway, which is why I will copy it into a blog).

“Oh, and dinosaur bones with soft tissue – is it a 60 million year old biological miracle, or is it just a 4,000 year old mummy?”

No, it’s a 5 year old invention of creationists.  Their initial findings said they found what looked like soft tissue which contained objects which resembled red blood cells, at which point creationists went around yelling that they found bloody chunks of dinosaur meat. Later tests revealed that there was no detectable in-tact organic material whatsoever from the dinosaur and that the elasticity of the material came mostly from more recent fossilized slime that had seeped into the bone.

Creationists still repeat the useful lie though, like that anthony flew was christian (in reality a deist), darwin’s deathbed conversion story that was debunked over a century ago by his family, and various other lies.  Yes, there are frauds in science now and then, but the difference is when they are found to be frauds they are unanimously condemned by the scientific community, not repeated for centuries as fact.

“The English black/white moth thing – disproved, not only was it WRONG, but it was a STAGED HOAX!”

No, I don’t know what fiction you’ve been reading.  If you have 2 groups of distinct animals in a species with differing characteristics, one of which is useful to the rate of survival/reproduction and the other is harmful, they will survive and reproduce at different rates.  This is a fact.  There is nothing to be faked.

“The human fetus going through animal-like stages Proved both WRONG and a STAGED HOAX over 100 years ago!”

No, another lie.  One scientist made exaggerated sketches of some of these stages because he could not obtain fetuses from every stage for every fetus.  That whales have four limbs in the womb (and hip bones, digits at the ends of their appendages etc in adulthood), that humans grow body-wide hair and then shed it in the womb, or that humans have tails in the womb which then recede etc.  These are all facts of biology.  Haeckel’s sketches were fraudulent, the legitimate science of embryology is not.

“Dark matter that explains where all the ‘extra’ mass HAS TO BE?! WHAT? WHERE? They don’t know either.”

Dark matter is matter which cannot be directly observed because it does not give of enough light (or any light) like stars and galaxies do, and but can be indirectly observed or inferred through other observations like it’s gravitational effects on visible bodies.  Now explain why this is silly please.

“Those beautiful dead trees standing up through levels and levels of million-years seperated rock. They ARE not uncommon.”

Another lie.  “Polystrate” fossils (a creationist term, not a scientific one) are found in areas where there is rapid sedimentation, such as from river deltas, coastal erosion or in layers of volcanic ash.

“ANY true fossil of ANY animal that is over a certain thickness would have to lie undisturbed for MILLIONS of years before the bones decayed, as proven by the very shape of the ‘levels’ of rock surrounding them ALL! On LAND! right. Tell me that one again when I want to laugh.”

Creationists are fond of making arguments that are logical, but based on false premises.  If your claims were true it would be important.  But they aren’t, so it’s not.  I found this out in like 2 seconds by googling it.  Years ago I found some creationist article showing a picture of a “polystrate” fossil and I googled where the caption said it was, and the area it was in was famous for it’s thick volcanic ash deposits.  Which I suspect why the creationist article used a black and white photo of the “layers of rock” to give the impression that it was not volcanic ash and rock.

“The ever-loving mastodons’ stomache acid did NOT fully digest LUNCH, much less eat out their stomaches after they died – often standing UP! Did aliens flash freeze multiple TONS of animal meat in just a few hours?! Animals in the Hundreds of thousands and millions and it happened again and again. Over thousands of years? Something’s not “NORMAL” about that.”

I’m not sure what you’re even saying.  Yes animals sometimes are buried or drown to death or are trapped in bogs standing up, being rapidly buried or submurged in water are two of the rare instances where fossilization is possible, which is why paleontologists look for fossils in places like dry river beds.

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About agnophilo

Nerd.
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29 Responses to More Creationist Arguments.

  1. I honestly wonder why you still take the time. I mean, I find it interesting to read and sometimes it is good to know these things off the cuff in real-life conversations… but you and I both know their kind isn’t listening. And the internet makes it especially easy for them to pretend like nothing happened.

  2. agnophilo says:

    @ElliottStrange – True.  I suppose I do it for the passerby who might get taken in by it.I just think if someone posts a bunch of bullshit there ought to be a dose of reality right under it where anyone who wants to can read it.Kind of like an anti-body in the country’s intellectual immune system kicking in.But yeah, I generally only write big long responses if I’m going to blog them later.

  3. The 7 day week was derived from 1/4th of the lunar cycle The Judeo-Christian seven day week comes from God, as written in the book of Genesis.Your entire blog is just you hallucinating a new meaning for Judeo-Christianity and then arguing against your own hallucination.And the creationist you referrenced can’t even spell evolution (he spelled it evilution).  Arguing against a moron is a big wing nut zero as is FAIL.

  4. agnophilo says:

    @LoBornlytesThoughtPalace – So I’m wrong because the person I’m arguing with is stupid?  Good logic.And that yahweh composed the book of genesis is your minority religious belief, not a demonstrable historical fact.

  5. agnophilo says:

    @LoBornlytesThoughtPalace – Oh, and yes he knows next to nothing about science and has had his mind filled with made up propaganda. Are you saying some creationists are knowledgeable about science and aren’t biased by religion?  Where are they hiding?

  6. @agnophilo – Yes, you are wrong to argue against morons.  That’s just you rigging the argument so you come out the winner.Every time you argue against me you lose and end up telling me to “fuck off” or end up calling me obscene names.You cannot survive in the arena of ideas.

  7. @agnophilo – The book of Genesis was written by Moses.

  8. agnophilo says:

    @SerenaDante – Yeah.  Btw I don’t know if you know, but he addressed you in the original blog (I only replied to a small part).  See the link above.@LoBornlytesThoughtPalace – You insult people you don’t agree with constantly.  And I don’t argue against people with correct ideas and sound arguments for the simple reason that I am generally too busy agreeing with them.@LoBornlytesThoughtPalace – That completely undercuts your claim then.  If genesis was written by moses who supposedly died in 1271 B.C.E., then many other sources for the 7 day week pre-date it by several thousand years.

  9. SerenaDante says:

    @agnophilo – I saw, and commented on that. But I honestly don’t care that much, since if he was too stupid to understand the sarcasm in my comment then… there’s really just no hope. Lol.

  10. @agnophilo – The morals, ethics and world view of Judeo-Christianity are the norm for all mankind.  It is no wonder then, that various things like the 7 day week, murder is wrong, helping your neighbor, etc., are found world wide among various cultures.To the God-hating liberal and atheist truth is an insult.  Since all I am guilty of is expose your fraudulent arguments, I plead guilty to insulting you and other God haters with the truth.

  11. agnophilo says:

    @SerenaDante – Fair enough.@LoBornlytesThoughtPalace – There is no logic to the claim that the commonalities between different cultures must have come from your culture, that is just ethnocentrism speaking.  Those similar common-sense ethics arose from philosophers around the world who had never heard of christ or moses.  But whatever.And a god-hating atheist is a contradiction.  But whatever, you put your foot in your mouth about the moses thing so you have to bash and hate me to justify yourself.

  12. @agnophilo – There is no logic to the claim that the commonalities between different cultures must have come from your culture, I didn’t make that claim at all.  So you see that you are hallucinating again.  Here’s the truth in case you are interested.Since God is the Creator and man is one of his creations, all of mankind is subject to his order.

  13. renzughent says:

    Kudos to you for having the patience/motivation for continually arguing with Creationists about their “scientific” misunderstandings.  The very core of the problem is a person’s lack of research for both sides of the argument before making an educated conclusion.  I used to have such discussions with my in-laws but it became very disheartening when they wouldn’t even look into the material I presented and chose to only read material that supports their pre-existing religious beliefs.

  14. agnophilo says:

    @LoBornlytesThoughtPalace – So then why are there cannibalistic cults and why has polygamy been the norm for most of human history, etc, etc?  You hone in on the similarities and ignore the differences.@renzughent – Yeah, it’s not a lack of research, it’s a lack of willingness to question what they already believe.  Religion is very good at poisoning people against new ideas.

  15. @agnophilo – So then why are there cannibalistic cults and why has polygamy been the norm for most of human history, etc, etc? This question demonstrates that you have no idea what the Bible says about human nature, God or anything else.  Allow me to explain:One consequence of Original Sin was that mankind lost instinctual knowledge of God’s will.  This means that whereas animals instinctually know their order and place and how to behave, man does not.That is why there is evil in the world.Man must learn how to be good and virtuous.  The purpose of Judeo-Christianity is to instruct human beings on proper, civilized behavior.

  16. @LoBornlytesThoughtPalace – Man must learn how to be good and virtuous.  The purpose of Judeo-Christianity is to instruct human beings on proper, civilized behavior.So, this is what it’s all about??  What bullshit.  Any other religion can do the same, as can following the “golden rule.” 

  17. agnophilo says:

    @LoBornlytesThoughtPalace – You just ignored everything I said.  I did not ask you to explain why people do wicked things, I pointed them out to counter your earlier claim.  But you never deal with the argument at hand.  And when you run out of arguments you slander.@gottobereal64 – Yup.

  18. Maverick83 says:

    I have the same problem. Trying to educate and reason with people who clearly are not worth the time and effort. Why do we do it? I honestly have trouble understanding why I bother, sometimes. I suppose it’s usually when I get the impression that they intend to impose their stupidity on others, and thus it’s an attempt at damage control, but it’s still utterly pointless. These people’s beliefs are set up specifically to reject all sound logic and reasoning with incoherent drivel and baseless assertions, both taken as proof of themselves and each other.Moreover, they are consumed entirely by their perspectives. Their egos are out of control. The idea that their simplistic outlook is not the one and only truth is incomprehensible to them, and represents a state of chaos. So naturally, they come to believe the stability of all civilization rests on that same simplistic outlook, making them that much more determined to preserve it.But I digress. For what it’s worth, your responses to those nonsensical arguments were excellent.

  19. UTRow1 says:

    We all know that scientists are dogmatic atheists that lazily accept false conventionalities, like evolution, without due cause. It’s not like those theories are intuitively correct; responsible for innumerable medical, pharmacological, and agricultural benefits; and accepted by virtually every Christian scientist. No. My theory, which definitely has never been, nor continues to be, a conventionality among undereducated Americans, is superior. Is is responsible for any scientific discoveries that can be implemented to benefit mankind? No. Can we provide evidence that supports even the most basic tenets of our theory? No. Do we have a handful of respected, relevant experts that adopt our views? No. But then again, we don’t have the benefit of an unsubstantiated, global cabal FORCING people to adopt our views! No, we just have countless, existent, well-funded conservative think tanks constantly lobbying federal, state, local government to enact our views. WHEN WILL THE SCIENTISTS STOP PERSECUTING THE AMERICAN PEOPLE WITH THEIR FACTS AND FIGURES AND CHARTS AND HOMOSEXUALITY?

  20. YouToMe says:

    His responses were very hard for me to understand , but i respect your perseverence– You are a very patient man! 🙂 This was both enlightening and entertaining.

  21. agnophilo says:

    @UTRow1 – Heh : )@YouTOme – : )  Always glad to infotain you : P

  22. YouToMe says:

    haha “infotain”

  23. agnophilo says:

    @YouTOme – Yes, it is funny.  : P

  24. amygwen says:

    I had a comment, but it all circled around ethnocentrism and you already used that word.

  25. agnophilo says:

    @amygwen – I don’t have a copyright on it or anything : P

  26. Tallman says:

    interesting…thanks for taking the time to write it.

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