The Non-Mosque That Isn’t At Ground Zero.

I commented on it briefly on this blog and thought I would share my comment:

Comfortable christian men in america don’t give two shits about minority rights for the simple fact that they’re not in any minority.  And they don’t care about persecution because in america they’re un-persecutable.  Very unenlightened.

I, an atheist who regularly discusses the harmfulness of religion, find myself with many other non-believers defending muslims’ rights to worship whatever the hell they want wherever the hell they want without government interference.

It’s not a muslim vs christian thing.  It’s simply an ability to empathize with and appreciate the necessity of not letting the majority run roughshod over the minority.


About agnophilo

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40 Responses to The Non-Mosque That Isn’t At Ground Zero.

  1. For this, I applaud you. 

  2. maybe some of the extra conservative upper class traditional christians from a region like the bible belt or midwest, they’d be a little out of experience in dealing with minority… but over here on the west coast, I feel that your statement is far from true.

  3. yea, cause the whole muslim race thinks ground zero was a good thing -_-people amaze me, we’re all doomed.

  4. “Comfortable christian men in america don’t give two shits about minority rights for the simple fact that they’re not in any minority.”I very strongly disagree with this statement, and am close to taking offense from it. I’m a relatively comfortable christian man. I give a lot of shit about minority rights. Yes, I also come from a town where white people are the minority (and very often discriminated against). Also, being in the liberal pacific northwest, christianity over here is far less common (not saying anything against liberalism; I’m liberal leaning myself), and is frequently looked down on.So basicaly, over here, the stereotypical white christian man IS the minority.I’m just blown away that you could think that, and I really wish I could show you how untrue it is.

  5. @SerenaDante – @gottobereal64 – I’m blown away that you could find support for this statement! Do you know anything about the pacific northwest? I can attest from experience that I and the region in which I live are the living contradictions to his assumption. Where I live, his statement is just plain not right! I’m not excusing those few idiots who do fit into his category; I’m not denying their existence, I’ve met plenty of people like this and their attitudes and behavior are disgusting! However, I am defending the truth that this generalization is just that. a generalization.And I am right now, right here being the contradiction… “not letting the majority run roughshod over the minority.”

  6. agnophilo says:

    @nodnarbassoon – I didn’t mean that all white male christians felt that way.  I was just saying that a large portion of the US population (and almost all of those in power) are in every cultural majority simultaneously and that is not a good formula for a tolerant society.I should have chosen my words more carefully, I apologize.@gottobereal64 – For that, I applaud you : P@strictlyskinny – Heh.  Yeah, and anyone who is muslim is obviously a terrorist plotter, just like all protestants are members of the KKK because they are christian and all catholics are nazis because hitler was one.

  7. agnophilo says:

    @nodnarbassoon – I find it interesting that you rec’d it and disagreed with it, lol.

  8. explosive says:

    this title is fantastic. Since most xangans only read titles, at least they’ve have learned something today.Apparently it’s a common Christian belief that you can’t be a Christian and an American at the same time. That’s simply untrue. These Christians are not Christian at all. They judge and condemn when they should love and accept.

  9. @agnophilo – lol right? if anything I think it’s making a big peace statement…if I were a terrorist i’d be pissed that other muslims are trying to make me look peaceful….Seriously people are letting terrorists win by being so afraid of SO many people. The number of muslims in the world is just growing and if people here keep thinking the way they do they’re going to be afraid of millions.Maybe that’s what the government wants though, maybe they’re counting on people to be dumber than a pile of rocks, then everyones too busy countering a common enemy to pay attention to what’s really going on.

  10. agnophilo says:

    @explosive – I’m sure they can square what they do with the bible somehow.  Just as moderates can square not executing gays with their theology.@strictlyskinny – It’s just fox news selling fear, as usual.  Fear of blacks, gays, liberals, communism, change, muslims, abortion, whatever.

  11. personally, i’m conflicted if i should even say anything about this. on the one hand, as an atheist, my view is that a world with neither churches nor mosques is a better one. so how can i stand up for one religion over another? but then i’m reminded of voltaire’s quote, “I do not agree with what you have to say, but I’ll defend to the death your right to say it.” 

  12. Da__Vinci says:

    The problem comes when people believe that Christians in America are actually practicing patriotism, when they are simply stamping bigotry with Gods approval. 

  13. YouToMe says:

    @Da__Vinci – agree”It’s not a muslim vs christian thing.  It’s simply an ability to empathize with and appreciate the necessity of not letting the majority run roughshod over the minority.”yessir, totally agree, Mark. 

  14. YouToMe says:

    @nodnarbassoon – i’m glad you said that. good point

  15. agnophilo says:

    @SoftlyPearlsSlipOffAString – Exactly. @Da__Vinci – True dat.@YouTOme – : )  And look at my response to nodnarbassoon.

  16. cyberbear says:

    Bigots never have God’s approval.  He made no junk.

  17. YouToMe says:

    @agnophilo - just read that. Really liked that. classy 😀

  18. @agnophilo – Thanks for the apology. Actually, honestly, I looked up numbers, and christians are a still majority over here; I was wrong. However, the mentality, as I know from experience, is quite a bit different. Basically, it just really gets me frustrated when atheists and christians and other religions alike start making generalizations to rip eachother apart. All it does is form a destructive mob mentality which is plain unloving and counterproductive.I keep saying… I maintain very strongly, that it goes both ways. For every christian who’s done something wrong, there’s an atheist… and for every atheist, a christian (or two… statistically).

  19. @YouTOme – No, seriously. Read my reply to Mark.

  20. What’s happening is like what certain people did to muslims after 9/11.A small group of a larger body goes wrong (or right, depending on your POV). Stupid people blame that group, and assume the body is just like that, and get even more people riled against the body. I hate to be nitpicky about it, but you really shouldn’t say these kinds of things, because it does get people riled up against christians. And YES, Christians have done a lot of shit. There are some really stupid christians out there, I know a few personally, and am friends with some, and sometimes I’d like nothing more than to belittle them. However, that doesn’t give me reason to go turning everyone I know against them. It’s just plain not cool.

  21. BobRichter says:

    @agnophilo – It’s worth noting that men are not a majority.Thus the necessity of mentioning women’s right specifically when otherwise discussing minority rights.

  22. agnophilo says:

    @cyberbear – He also called for the mindless slaughter and permanent enslavement of all but his “chosen people” etc.  There’s a lot of racism and nationalism and bigotry in scripture.@YouTOme – : )@nodnarbassoon – I don’t know if it quite works out that way, especially since there are more of one group than the other which would necessitate that the minority be more wicked per capita, but if you are speaking figuratively about a basic attitude I agree.  I think religion is a bad thing, but I do not think religious people in general are evil or malicious.  @nodnarbassoon – Classy of you to do.@nodnarbassoon – Dude, read my blog.  I specifically said it wasn’t a problem with christianity (or being white or male for that matter), but rather a confluence of a very large chunk of the country having zero experience being in any minority and thus not appreciating minority rights.@BobRichter – They are not a minority in the general population but are still a minority in government and policymaking, comprising about 52% of the general population and about 17.9% of the house and 18% of the senate.  If every female member of congress that has ever served in US history was still serving now they would make up less than half.  So yeah, women are still a fucked over minority, even in the technical majority.

  23. gpspacey says:

    I really wish the country would just move on…Shouldn’t we be paying more attention to the fact that the weather keeps getting hotter and we’re soon going to be frying our brains out?Maybe it’s happened already.

  24. agnophilo says:

    @gpspacey – Actually global warming makes hot and cold weather worse, but yeah.

  25. BobRichter says:

    @agnophilo – but calling them a minority still misses the point. In a republic where political power is both measured and created through capitation, women have a real majority and are far from powerless. Theirs is a special case where they are complicit in their own oppression, and that is the only reason that their oppression can and does continue.

  26. grim_truth says:

    Actually, if you bother to look around, even here on Xanga, you will find a lot of white Christians standing up for the right of the Muslims to have their building (mosque, community center, whatever you want to call it.)From what I can tell (who knows how accurate the depictions I found on the web are) the building looks to be a normal building, though a bit flamboyant.  I have no problem with it.  I think it MAY be a bit insensitive to put it so close, but that’s just me.  The bigger problem I see is, everyone can be offended and it’s ok, except for white Christians.  If they’re offended by it, so what?

  27. agnophilo says:

    @BobRichter – So you’re blaming the oppression of women in america on… women?  That’s like blaming the fact that obama was the only black member of the US senate (when there should have been roughly 12 others if it were proportionate to the electorate) on blacks disenfranchising themselves.  Women have a small majority and shouldn’t be expected to vote unanimously or nearly unanimously for female candidates to negate prejudice from the other side.Your statement is like people saying racism is over because we have a black president, as if once a group is electable all prejudice or oppression or unfairness immediately disappears.

  28. agnophilo says:

    @grim_truth – As I told nodnarbassoon, that isn’t what I meant.  Read my responses to him near the top of the first page of comments for clarification.

  29. grim_truth says:

    @agnophilo – Didn’t even see that, sorry lol

  30. grim_truth says:

    @agnophilo – Though I AM worried…. isn’t the two of us agreeing on something a sign of the apocalypse? lol

  31. BobRichter says:

    @agnophilo – no, that’s not remotely like either of those. Specifically, it’s not like either of those because blacks are actually a minority and even if they all threw in on something they’d still be outvoted by the majority, so it doesn’t matter quite so much.Women are a rare (unique, as far as I know) case of an oppressed majority. Men couldn’t hold them down in a majority-rule system if we tried. What that means is that there’s a broad agreement among both men and women that women should be oppressed.Of course, that shouldn’t really be surprising either. The truth is that it’s not majority oppression at all, you’ve simply mistaken the majority in question. It’s not men, it’s “people comfortable in traditional gender roles” who actually are a majority.It’s not men oppressing women, it’s the system oppressing both, and women have had a hand in both creating the system in the first place and in keeping it running. 

  32. agnophilo says:

    @grim_truth – : )  I believe I said that at one point, yes.  Though since christ said it would happen within one generation 80 or so generations ago I think we can relax : )@BobRichter – What is your evidence?

  33. BobRichter says:

    @agnophilo – For which specific claim?I’m just jiving with you here, assembling a fully cogent argument in support of those several claims would be rather difficult in short order. None of these claims are extraordinary, and some are well-documented fact, so I find your skepticism frustrating and unwarranted. Women are a fully-enfranchised majority. This is not open to dispute. Women may and do vote and their right to do so is so zealously protected that few in this day and age would seriously question it. Women are not restricted from holding office. Their continuing failure to gain a majority in the bodies of political authority cannot be explained in terms of oppression by men because men are not a majority of the body politic.It is thus obvious that any group blamed for the oppression of women must include at least some women. Consider that it also does not include some men, and the now-ancient saw of “women oppressed by men” becomes simply laughable.Can you even provide a study that backs the idea that men are more attached to the traditional notion of women’s place in society than women are? Or more attached to the traditional notion of men’s place in society than women are?And yes, I can show you oppression of men by society. So where do you want to go?

  34. agnophilo says:

    @BobRichter – Having a majority does not automatically and immediately grant any group social or political superiority, especially given the incumbency rate in congress, the fact that what determines who wins elections is often who receives more funding, not who is the better candidate, and the leadership of each party is and has been mostly male, etc.  In the past there have been women who say they wouldn’t vote for a female president, and in the days of suffrage there were women who bought into the bullshit that voting and government was “men’s work” and that they were to be submissive to authority and all that shit, which was largely reinforced by what the all-male clergy told them in church.But I don’t think there’s nearly as much of that now, so I ask you to please provide evidence that women today are oppressing themselves politically, or hold similar views.Either way it’s a complicated issue.  But my point was that women are, in many respects, still a small minority when it comes to social influence.  Less than 1/5th of congress, and as far as I know zero percent of the people in congress who are for stripping muslims of the right to make mosques.Of course it’s not a 100% male or female thing, but that isn’t what my point was.

  35. BobRichter says:

    @agnophilo – whereas my point was simply an aside. I wasn’t disagreeing with you, rather pointing out that you had technically made an error in referring to males as a majority. I’m still confused as to what you want me to demonstrate. That some women hold anti-egalitarian views is common knowledge. That women have a hand in the oppression of women (and men) is obvious. That women are a majority is a fact. None of this is genuinely in dispute, so exactly what was it you wanted me to prove?

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