Christians, Have Some Compassion For Gay People.

I wrote this response to a fundamentalist christian and got into some stuff toward the end that was very blog-worthy.  So please read:

“A human being can fall in love with anything. You can read about people falling in love with their animals.  There are those that swear they are in love with little children only a few years old.  A human being is capable of all these things.”

You cannot compare loving a person with loving an animal, or child molestation to consensual adult sex, and if you could you could use it to impeach straight sex and marriage equally.  There is nothing homosexual or heterosexual about pedophilia or bestiality, and both are wrong for their own reasons, none of which apply to homosexuality.

“Then there are those from all these perversions of natural order that correct themselves or are in some of their own words delivered from it.”

There is no scientific evidence that gay people can make themselves straight or visa versa.  Bisexual people can stick to one gender and gay people can force themselves to go through the motions of acting straight, but that is it.

“So, people are capable of many things and they can claim they were born that way but as I showed in my blog, if nature made them that way and they are left alone to do same sex, NATURE will have succeeded in eliminating them from the world in one generation.”

As I said in my first response, that is not true since homosexuality is developmental, not hereditary.  You either didn’t read my response or didn’t understand it.

Imagine if the roles were reversed and you were only attracted to women and homosexuality were the biological norm.  Would it be fair or someone to say you weren’t allowed to marry a woman and had to marry and have sex with a man?  It would be disgusting and wrong and violate everything you are.

That is the position a gay woman is in.  If you tried even a little bit to empathize with and understand their position you might have an ounce of compassion for them.

“So, I see the explanation given in the Bible is borne out by nature, science and revelation. If not I suppose God owes Sodom and Gormorrah an apology.”

I think mass-murderers generally owe an apology to their victims.

“Yet as an American, I think people should be left alone to do what they want. That does not mean that they should be left alone to change common sense law.”

It isn’t “common sense law”, it’s religious law.  And if we never changed “common sense law” we would still own slaves.  Which yes, is also sanctioned in scripture.

“So, no, they were not born that way. Too many who thought they were are no longer homosexuals.”

No, too many who are say that they are not to get back into the good graces of their christian communities so they can try to piece their lives together and not spend their lives treated like a leper.  Or because of denial, that happens too.

“If you feel differently, its ok. I have heard much talk but none of it makes as much sense as I have shown in my assertions.”

You really haven’t.

“You should not build law upon sentimentalities alone. Because I love my Homosexual sibling does not means it makes any more sense.”

It doesn’t make any sense to you because you’re not gay.  It makes sense to them.

The fact of the matter is people are biologically born gay and can’t help it – this is both the overwhelming testimony of gay people and the scientific consensus where neurologists do tests to measure peoples’ unconscious reaction to stimuli to verify that it’s an automatic response.  Christians don’t accept this only for the same reason they resisted the idea that slavery was wrong in the civil war era, because it calls the infallibility of scripture into question.

“If love is what they want, same sex couples say they have it from their partners.  The truth is that they want something else.”

Since when did people have to choose between equal civil rights and love?

“They want the World to declare in the face of God and man that their relationships are natural and equal to those for which marriage was made, opposites.”

The same argument was made when marriage was “re-defined” to be between people of different races.  The fact of the matter is gay marriages take place all the time, loads of churches perform gay marriages.  That isn’t the issue.  The issue is that gay couples pay more taxes and can collect fewer benefits and have over 1 thousand fewer legal rights and protections than straight couples, the total number is about 1400 fewer legal rights. 

Imagine if your wife died of an easily preventable disease because you had family insurance that covered your spouse but the insurance company didn’t recognize your marriage as valid, and you couldn’t see her in the hospital on her deathbed because the hospital didn’t consider you legally family so her parents who didn’t approve of your marriage could shut you out for weeks while she died.  Then you couldn’t have her buried next to you or have custody of her children or inherit the house you’d been living together in for years because the state just considered you an acquaintance of hers with no legal standing.  Then multiply that by a thousand and that’s the plight of gay people in this country.

I don’t know how anyone can put themselves in a gay person’s shoes and not have some compassion.  Yeah you consider gay people perverts, but I don’t see you going around saying straight perverts should be stripped of over a thousand legal rights.

It’s not about marriage (again, gay marriage happens all the time), it’s about civil rights.  But it makes christians feel icky to think about so they don’t deserve the legal protections christians take for granted.

“Be of good cheer.
Bill”

Of course.  I will still argue with you though.

Mark.

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About agnophilo

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79 Responses to Christians, Have Some Compassion For Gay People.

  1. meta_k says:

    Hmmm…well I’m a Christian and have no problems with homosexuals.  I even have gay family members.  I think you need to direct this post to the crazy right-wing radicals who abuse Christianity and say/do horrible things to gays.  

  2. Frankly as a lesbian, I’m fucking tired of the homosexuality controversy. It’s all a crock of shit. People don’t want to feel like we “force” our gay lives on them and shove it in their faces, and yet those people only want to preach the bible. You have faith, you’ve found God? You know what, I think that’s great. But just because you believe in one God doesn’t mean I have to. So for a book to be justification for the way I have to live MY life, doesn’t hold any weight. It might make sense to you, but if you can prove any point without throwing Bible verses at my feet, then maybe you can prove whatever point it is you have to me. Facts, not opinions, not beliefs.As a young woman, almost 22, in college, wanting to settle down sometime soon, all I want are the rights others are allowed. I don’t care if the state doesn’t “recognize” my marriage or my devotion to my partner. It’s the liberties that other people have decided that I don’t have a right to that I’m concerned about. Everyone wants to argue about how a gay couple still has all of the same benefits as a straight married couple, with the exception of the fact that they aren’t married. Which is a completely false statement. Have you ever had a loved one in the ER or ICU? If you have then you might be aware that in most cases only family members are allowed in. Well, if that was your husband or wife and your marriage wasn’t recognized by the state because you’re black and she’s white, or she’s Jewish and you’re a Christian, then I guess maybe it would matter to you what the government thought of your relationship…I’m not clear on all of the things that I wont be entitled to, because I am not married to my partner, but that’s because I’m only 21 and I haven’t been exposed to these situations yet. But I hope I never have to find out the hard way. I can’t believe that this is still an issue.

  3. @letseewhatthiswilldo – Yeah, the marches are for attention, to bring attention to Gay Rights. It worked for MLK don’t you think?

  4. @SerenaDante – Would you agree that love is best defined at giving more than getting, a sort of selfless perspective?

  5. SoTakeCover says:

    i actually think there are a lot of poor arguments here and ones ive heard before. although, i did not finish til the end, where you said the best reasoning was, but rather about 3/4 of the way through.i am christian and i have compassion for gay people. i have compassion for them the same as i do for each and every one of us, since we all sin. the difference is that i admit my sins. but homosexuals say what theyre doing isnt wrong.they are still people and still deserve to have rights, like naming whoever they want to be priviledged to their health information. however marriage is a sacred thing, recognized by churches. it makes no sense to to me why a homosexual couple wants to fight for such a thing- and if the situation were reversed i would still consider myself promised to my husband even if no one else wanted to acknowledge it, even if the government wouldnt give me a certificate. christians fight to ban it because God calls us to do so. but that doesnt mean that we hate on them or want to treat them less than human or even judge them. and i particularly loathe the following quote:And if we never changed “common sense law” we would still own slaves.  Which yes, is also sanctioned in scripture.it is such a weak argument to say that because one law was wrong, any other controversial laws must be also. the ten commandments are pretty clear and they dont sanction owning another person, or cruelty or any other ugliness. im really rather tired of this way of thinking.

  6. @My_Imperfect_Words – That is a good analogy. I fully believe in respect for the individual, however my concern is for an unequal retaliation. I know the MOST Christians do not embody the hate towards homosexuals anymore than the hopeless delinquent known as a nigger embodies the african american. Would you agree?

  7. SerenaDante says:

    @letseewhatthiswilldo – Certainly, love is giving more than getting, but I would disagree that it is completely selfless.

  8. Mangonese says:

    @Winsa – Thanks for pointing that out. I was about to say the same thing, but you got to it first. šŸ™‚

  9. Mangonese says:

    Marriage has been around before Christianity and before the concept of the Christian god. Marriage is not sacred based on the fact that it is performed in churches (marriages can be performed anywhere by anyone legally allowed to by law. Are ship captains sacred? How about city hall judges?). Marriage used to be about owning a woman and making babies, and it was modern religion that made it more about God than anything else.I call myself Christian for the ease of conversation, but I cannot and will not believe in any concept of a god that a) makes people a certain way and then condemns them for it, and b) sanctions inequality for its children. My God is a loving God that believes in us as much as we believe in it.For all people out there afraid to get our queer germs, forget it. Most of us aren’t asking to be accepted by your gods. We just want our legal rights, and we want to be able to use a fucking word. You didn’t make it up. You don’t have it trademarked or copyrighted. Grow up and get out of my life and my faith.

  10. God Said “Love one another.” So, You can love everybody but sex. :/

  11. @SerenaDante – Well said. I agree with that statement. So it is in relationships of all types that the ignoring of that leads to resentment within the relationship; but it does lead us to a larger question doesn’t it?

  12. Sorry I missed this one when it went up. Great stuff, as I’ve come to expect from you. It tickles me that people still like to argue that scripture does not support slavery and polygamy, as demonstrated by a few comments here. Don’t even know about their own book… stupid fucks.

  13. ladygloom says:

    Ahh!! This is an excellent argument! Thumbs up! 

  14. very good points made!

  15. @letseewhatthiswilldo – Yeah, I don’t feel like all Christians are homophobic. But I will say, most people who are, blame it on God and The Bible. People say that “It states clearly in the Bible” but it doesn’t. The Bible leaves so much room for interpretation. No where does it say, “Living the life of a homosexual is a sin.” What do you think?

  16. @SoTakeCover – Gay people don’t want to get married so it’s recognized by the church. Some might, but that’s not the primary reason for getting married. The primary reason is because of the benefits that married couples get. A ring is just a symbol, a ceremony is just a tradition. But if the person that I’m in love with was hurt and in the ER and I wasn’t allowed to see her because I’m not “family” when in reality I’m the only family she has where we live, then that is different. Sure I could lie and say I’m her sister or some crap like that, but I shouldn’t have to. Do you think?

  17. SoTakeCover says:

    @My_Imperfect_Words –  agreed…. first sentence, third paragraph of my post. thats a little more detail, but essentially a perfect example of what i was saying.

  18. SoTakeCover says:

    @My_Imperfect_Words – its pretty straightforward in the ten commandments.

  19. @My_Imperfect_Words – RYC: The foundation for belief that within Christianity it is wrong begins in the Old Testament. Leviticus chapter 18 addresses this specifically. What is recorded as normal and within the context of the people that have chosen to follow God never define anything outside of heterosexual marital love as appropiate. Within the New Testament, Romans chapter 1 is probably the most popular as a reference. It explains the chicken-egg story how a societal departure from God in turning to idolatry (anything in the place of God) leads to a social structure that looks exactly like the one we live in, in America, with sexuality becoming an anything goes-who is God to question? society. The reasoning for God’s will within Scripture is not got at in a verse or two. Understanding the whole picture of who God is in the context of history and what He is aiming at helps the reader to understand why His laws of relational governance are what they are. In short, the first and greatest dilemma in coming to God is having to admit that God IS God and we are not. It is a question of authority over our lives, not from the point of view of the churches, but from the Bible itself as being divinely inspired.This is additionally interesting in light of the fact that the prophetical writings in the Old Testament prophecy address this within its social context in much greater detail; how it comes about, who is perpetuating it, and what is going to be done about it. It isn’t something mankind can fix with the proper leadership; it will (the culture of the world) become (or has become) so wicked in terms of Biblical perspective that it is irreversible. This is partly because people put other people as leadership in the place of God’s rule over their lives so they can feel less in the wrong–meanwhile, they know it is wrong, whatever it is, or it would probably not even be a question.Another perspective to consider is that in addition to the Bible there is compelling evidence that other non-judeochristian cultures have for much longer legally frowned upon homosexuality. That is not to say it was not practiced, just that it was considered morally wrong. Why this would be true in a cuture without a unifying divine lawcode is something to think about. As is also, why did those cultures consider it wrong and on what basis.So, to try to keep this brief šŸ˜‰ — the Bible does speak against homosexual activity as sin in the full Biblical context. A question I myself have personally wondered is does demonic inspiration precede the desires. My guess so far has been that this is true. I believe that might be behind what the Romans chapter 1 is referring to.Does this help?

  20. @SoTakeCover – Yeah, you mentioned it in that one sentence, my point was that it has nothing to do with the church aspect in most cases. The rest of your post was about how you don’t understand why gay people would want to get married. So I was attempting to explain the reasoning.

  21. SoTakeCover says:

    @My_Imperfect_Words –  gotchya. okay let me say this then. i think we should change things as a country so that people in general should have those benefits. that way, it wouldnt be pitting christians against homosexuality in order to protect the sanctity of marriage and regardless of belief, there would be mutual respect and rights.

  22. @SoTakeCover – The Bible has more written in it than the ten commandments.

  23. @SoTakeCover – But the government calls that union a marriage. It’s a marriage license. Besides, even though I don’t want to get “married” by definition, that’s not all gay people. Some gay people go to church and pray, and believe with all of their hearts. They classify themself as Christians, eventhough they don’t believe everything Christiany has become. People will tell you, “My God is a loving God. He loves me and he loves all of his/her children and he knows my heart. And because he can see my heart when my judgement day comes, he will know where I belong.”People don’t want us to force our lifestyles on them, and I don’t want to have any religion forced on me. So I say, treat others the way you’d want to be treated.

  24. @letseewhatthiswilldo – The Greeks did not look down on homosexuality. It was often that a man in power my have a wife and also have a boy friend.Again, the Bible does not just list off, this is wrong, this is wrong, this is wrong. So, like I said, your interpretation of a book, any book, might be different than mine.Anyway, the Bible aside, America was built on the idea that people should be allowed to practice whatever religion they please. You know, I consider myself to be a pretty thoughtful and understanding person. I feel like I should be allowed the same rights as everyone else. For someone else’s religion to deny me my rights, isn’t what America is supposed to be about.

  25. SoTakeCover says:

    @My_Imperfect_Words –  ‘People say that “It states clearly in the Bible” but it doesn’t. The Bible leaves so much room for interpretation. No where does it say, “Living the life of a homosexual is a sin.” ‘^ i was giving an answer to that. yes there is more written than just the ten commandments, but the ten commandments break it down in direct statements so that you dont have to interpret and you cant miss his message. that is where it directly states that it is a sin.

  26. SoTakeCover says:

    @My_Imperfect_Words – yikes i think were starting to go in circles. i think that we should change those rights to something other than a marriage license. then it would dissipate a lot of the controversy. as far as homosexual people saying theyre christian, i get that. i sin all the time and im still christian. the reason why christians band together to try to keep homosexuals from being married in a christian way is because we are called to do so. to those quotes- i have no idea how god will judge you. i know its not my place to judge you, just as i know it IS my place as a christian to do my very best to uphold the belief system put in place by the bible. and about not wanting us to define how you live- this isnt utopia. america is the same as every other country- the majority make the main decisions. the majority decide what is right and wrong. we try to impose on the details as little as possible and thats why america is so beloved. but we are still human and need order and there are some lines that just wont ever budge. i believe this is one of them. your best bet to not be suffocated by a population that doesnt believe what you believe is probably to own your own island country. but then you get into bullying from the world powers….

  27. @SoTakeCover – As far as marriage for gay people having it’s own special terminology goes, I don’t know. I don’t see that being likely. I think it would cause other issues because of the way laws are written, this new word wouldn’t be in any of them. But then again, why can’t a marriage between two women and between a man and a woman be called the same thing and different? Love is love, but I love my fish differently than I love my mother.As for being Christian, I understand that according to the faith you’re supposed to save people and turn them toward Jesus. I understand that, but your faith and my faith aren’t the same, so still, there’s this lack of separation between church and state. Your faith and my faith, shouldn’t have an effect on basic human rights.As for the comment above concerning the Bible, I still believe that the Bible is left to mass interpretation. So my point still stands, it does not say, flat out, gay people are going to hell, two men having sex is a sin. Do you really think that the majority of the population is against same sex marriage? Why don’t you take a pole here on Xanga? I will bet you, that if you looked through these comments the -majority- says that they don’t care if gay people are allowed to get married. Out of all of your points, I think that the one about ‘some lines never budging and this being one of them’ is the most far fetched. Gay people might not have all of the same rights as other people, but we have come a long way. Don’t get me wrong I still hear about things that set me on fire inside, but I have to say I’m pretty lucky to live in the times that I do. The example I want give to illustrate that change is more likely than not is when segregation was alive and well. We’ve all learned about segregation in school, we know about the bus systems and the black and white water fountains. Back then, that was a way that was so ingrained in American culture, I bet not many people ever saw change coming. I’m not saying that it’s the same, because our struggles have their differences, but my point is, if that change can be made? Gay people are well on their way to being allowed to get married.

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