Argument Over Whether God Created The Universe.

I’m posting part of an exchange between me and alampi that happened in someone’s blog comments:

Alampi:

“God did it” is a more plausible “belief” than “it did it by itself”. Both require faith.

Me:

The only difference is only one of us is claiming either of those.  “I don’t know” does not require faith and is the only honest answer.

Alampi:

That’s like pleading the 5th. There are really only 2 options. Either God created this universe or it came about on it’s own. And you know that anyone powerful enough to create this would certainly wear the title “God”.

Me:

Okay first of all there are an almost infinite number of options since there are an almost infinite number of possible gods and an infinite number of possible ways to create universes (for all we know).  You are talking about yahweh, and no, there is not a 50% chance of that being the case. 

And we DO NOT KNOW.  Even if a god-like being created the universe, that tells us nothing.  How did this being create the universe?  By what mechanism?  How did it get the ability to create universes?  Where did it come from?

Just saying “yahweh did it” is as much of an explanation as “zeus did it”.  Answering the question “how did this happen” with “yahweh made it happen somehow” is a non-answer.  Just as zeus worshippers were only pretending to understanding things which they did not understand, modern theists are only pretending to understand questions that make the most brilliant people in the human race scratch their heads and wonder.

Conceit from ignorance is not good, and it is not wisdom.

Alampi:

I didn’t name the God that created. I only gave the options. And there really are only 2. It came about by itself or it was created. And as I said, if it were created, referring to that creator as God is no stretch for me, as He’s beyond my comprehension. The other option, that it came about by itself, no matter the mechanism, is just silly to me. We could ride the fence and be non committal, but that really doesn’t seem like you. From your posts, I see strong convictions. You obviously are quite intelligent, also. Seems you would have faith in one or the other option, then. Pick a side!

Me:

I have strong convictions only when they are warranted by something.  I try not to have strong opinions about things I do not understand.

And lets assume that your false dichotomy is true and there are only two options, and examine them.

Option A: The universe “just exists” inexplicably.

Option B: A god “just exists” inexplicably, and inexplicably created the universe.

Option A has two advantages, one that it is vastly simpler and only requires one assumption to be made, where the second requires two and therefore option A is more likely to be correct according to occam’s razor.  And the second is that we know by direct observation that the universe exists, however it does, but we cannot say the same thing about a hypothetical deity.

Invoking an inexplicable being to explain something inexplicable is a waste of time, and this is the kind of thinking we as a civilization should’ve left behind in the bronze age.  Imagine for a moment if science allowed for this kind of thinking – instead of modern science we would still have greek mythology, since all scientists would have to do to “explain” anything was invoke an invisible magical being.  Would that be rational?  Would our ignorance of lightning or thunder “prove” zeus?  Is this good logic?  Should quantum physicists be “solving” problems in their equasions by saying “a fairy made it work that way”.  Or is it only reasonable if it’s the god of your culture?

This is bad reasoning.  And again that is even assuming for the sake of argument that your false dichotomy is correct.  Our not understanding quantum physics does not in any way point to yahweh’s existence any more than us not understanding lightning points to zeus’ existence.  This, in logic, is called an argument from ignorance.

I do not believe in replacing the words “I don’t know” in my vocabulary with the words “god did it”.  If I don’t know something, I don’t know it.  If I don’t understand something, I don’t understand it.

And I never will if, instead of holding out for understanding and knowledge, I simply pretend to understand what I don’t.

The ancient greeks with their whole throngs and hordes of deities, spirits, muses, demi-gods, titans, nymphs and the like thought they had a good handle on how the world worked.  They didn’t.

And nor did bronze-age jews when they boiled the multitude of gods and spirits into a handful.

Advertisements

About agnophilo

Nerd.
This entry was posted in Uncategorized and tagged , , , , , . Bookmark the permalink.

29 Responses to Argument Over Whether God Created The Universe.

  1. anaraug says:

    I don’t think the historical Hebrews were even the ones to do so.  El and Yahweh weren’t conflated into one deity until well after the Torah was redacted.What would be more convincing, I think, would be if he was arguing for a more generic “first cause”.  I feel like saying “there was a cause” is a much more useful statement than “there was a creator”.  That is sort of like what I believe (Plato’s forms) except that cause looks nothing like a god.

  2. agnophilo says:

    @anaraug – A generic first cause or a deistic god is better because it makes fewer wild assumptions, but it still makes an assumption and isn’t supported by evidence.I personally think that the mysteries of quantum physics will be explained as much by exploring matter and energy as by exploring how our mind works.  Because cause and effect, while they seem valid, are concepts and our common sense is not tooled up to really deal with the quantum or cosmological scale.  What intuitively makes sense in the physics of baseball isn’t going to map out onto the physics of quantum particles or black holes.  Anyone who studies physics knows that the faster, bigger or smaller you get, the less useful common sense are.  You can land in water falling so fast it has the consistency of concrete, traveling 9/10ths the speed of light you can experience 20 years of time while 200 have gone by for people standing still.No, the universe is much bigger than us and our common sense.  Which is to be expected, there is no reason we should have evolved minds capable of easily understanding the quantum world any more than we should evolve senses that can perceive it.

  3. gene546 says:

    @agnophilo – See, you’re falling into your own contradiction. You wrote about the universe, and you hold that it came to be by itself. But, you failed to address or explain by what means the universe, created it. To say a) God created the universe and b) the universe created it. And since b appear to be less complex because, imply one force or one being only, by using this reasoning you’re appealing to the” Occam Razor,” which it stated the  “simplest explanation the better one.” Wrong, physics doesn’t work that way. Finally, the law of Cause an effect has not been override.

  4. an_OM_aly says:

    well even the scientists are searching for the god particle(because you can’t see my expression or hear my tone of voice, i must say that i have a weird sense of humour)

  5. agnophilo says:

    @gene546 – I said the opposite of that actually.@an_OM_aly – Har har.

  6. gene546 says:

    @agnophilo – If you said the opposite why you’re replaying then?

  7. gene546 says:

    @agnophilo – If you said the opposite why you’re replaying then?

  8. agnophilo says:

    @gene546 – I don’t understand the question.

  9. gene546 says:

    @agnophilo – Yes, if you haven’t said what I understood from your post please, accept my apologies.

  10. agnophilo says:

    @gene546 – Don’t worry about it.

  11. gene546 says:

    @agnophilo – However, keep in mind that the Big Bang hypothesis is, null and void, because, it implied an “infinite regression,” why? For, infinite regression means infinite time, and we would never get to our present time; and you and me knows that we’re here at this very moment. Then, there is no infinite regression but creation instead. You have an acute mind. Thought about my post, I think it would make sense to you, too. Happy Thanksgiving and enjoy it with your family.

  12. agnophilo says:

    @gene546 – The big bang theory was proposed by a catholic priest, and it describes the universe and time as being apparently finite.  Your opinions about the theory are based in misinformation about it.

  13. gene546 says:

    @agnophilo – I think you have told three times already that, a Catholic priest invented the hypothesis of the big bang. The matter in question is, not who hypothesized about the black holes but, if it in fact is a reliable hypothesis. The information is given above in my previous post.

  14. agnophilo says:

    @gene546 – The big bang theory has nothing to do with black holes.  You’re getting this stuff mixed up in your head. Don’t worry about it.

  15. gene546 says:

    WEEL, I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW, EXACTLY, THE NAME OF THAT SUPER INFINITE DENSE ENTITY THAT EXPLODED, SOMETIME, 13.5 BILLION YEARS AGO?

  16. agnophilo says:

    @gene546 – Names are given by people, we can call it whatever we want.  Most scientists refer to it as the big bang singularity.  

  17. gene546 says:

    @agnophilo – There you go, a singularity is also known as a black hole. Black holes are singularities. And since there is no such a particle in the dimensions of 1*10^-33; which it physicists called the “god particle,” it fallows that the black singularities is, just another silly invention of the sick minds of science, or the physicists to suppress the Truth

  18. agnophilo says:

    @gene546 – This is incoherent.  And the dimensions of subatomic particles change wildly under various extreme conditions.  You can take 150 gallons of water and compress it into a one gallon container if you have enough pressure, and that is not even close to the pressure inside a black hole.

  19. gene546 says:

    @agnophilo – Our discussion was if the black hole is, similar to the entity that gave rise to the big bang; now, if all the mass of the universe which it is equal to 1*10^79 particles~ one trillion of galaxies, with an average of two billon stars each, and all this matter was compressed into this singularity is, absolutely, absurd. Please, watch the series the “Universe” aired by the NGC, happy Thanksgiving.

  20. agnophilo says:

    @gene546 – The universe is absurd, if you haven’t noticed.

  21. gene546 says:

    @agnophilo – That is an excellent answer. “The universe is absurd,” but, only without God

  22. gene546 says:

    Well, probably you might be right, “regardless. “

  23. agnophilo says:

    @gene546 – The universe doesn’t always conform to our common sense, whether or not there is a god.

  24. ichifangirl says:

    I hate arguing with people like that. -_-;

  25. agnophilo says:

    @ichifangirl – He’s pretty mild actually, but yeah.

  26. Justin says:

    Still bringing down the house, I see.

Speak yer mind.

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out / Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out / Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out / Change )

Google+ photo

You are commenting using your Google+ account. Log Out / Change )

Connecting to %s