I saw a blog recently that was an apologetic christian radio host arguing with a really dumb pro-choicer who couldn’t argue their way out of a paper bag.  This was posted as I guess proof that pro-choicers are wrong or something.  Anyway, it got me thinking.  The pro-choicer was repeating the old line about pro-lifers caring about the fetus but not caring about it when it grows up.  But she garbled this so badly that it was clear she was repeating something she heard some pundit say, but couldn’t argue it coherently.  The actual argument is about consistency.  Is human life sacred or isn’t it?  But before we get to that, what do we mean by sacred?  If something is sacred to me it means you just don’t mess with it, period.  So if human life is sacred, then killing someone would be the ultimate blasphemy.  But if this were true then all pro-lifers would oppose the death penalty.  But a minority actually do.  So sticking a needle in someone’s arm and killing them is okay, but their life is sacred?

How many pro-lifers are strict pacifists?  How many are anti-war?

These are valid issues to be raised.  And it is also valid to immediately dismiss the criticism of an individual if they are not a hypocrite in these areas.

I don’t mean to pick on pro-lifers, hypocrisy just annoys me.


About agnophilo

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26 Responses to Hypocrisy.

  1. too_restless says:

    Well….I am against war and violence. I hold life sacred. I only believe in the death penalty for child molesters. Hate them with a passion. I think they should all be lined up and shot. So other than that, I am against war and settling things with violence. Even though i know it isn’t realistic. Its just hard to see soldiers not come home and be brainwashed at such a young age. Or come home with limbs missing etc…that makes it hard to support the military. So i guess i am a hypocrit. I feel we all are sometimes. As for abortion, I am against it. I had one and still suffer and struggle with that decision. I fully regret it. Does this mean another woman will feel the same? No, but from my experience it is a mistake. At the time of that decision-I didn’t have my own views. It was a long time ago and i didn’t know shit! i had to learn the hard way, what i stand for. Still not sure sometimes.

  2. Da__Vinci says:

    It’s not hypocrisy as much as it is false equivocation. Specifics never get argued, but generalities do. By false equivocation, I mean bringing up sanctity of life, which is at best a vague concept. When sanctity of life enters the argument, it is much broader than the specific topic of abortion, sure there are some commonality, but sanctity of life implies much more which is why it’s so vague. It’s attempting to cram abortion, death penalties, and euthanasia into one neat package, when these are completely different subjects and need to be treated as such. Sanctity of life attempts to falsely equivocate (with ill defined logic), a mystic value to life based in vague dogma against a very real problem, abortion. I think pro-life arguments rely on this false equivocation in a moral game they play where you have to commit to some position of theirs which is played against you in a completely different argument that has little to do with abortion. 

  3. musterion99 says:

     So if human life is sacred, then killing someone would be the ultimate blasphemy.  But if this were true then all pro-choicers would oppose the death penalty.  But a minority actually do.  So sticking a needle in someone’s arm and killing them is okay, but their life is sacred?That’s a non-sequiter. A baby in the womb is innocent. A serial murderer isn’t.

  4. Your post is confusing because you keep referring to “pro-choicers” then at the end throw in “pro-lifers.”  Are you talking about the same people?  I would think most “pro-choicers” DO oppose the death penalty.Also, I do not necessarily agree that something sacred is not to be messed with, “period.”  I think that what “sacred” means and how a “sacred” thing or being is to be treated would also be a matter of faith.  For example, a tribal belief system could hold that the deer is “sacred” because of everything it gives the tribe for its survival.  Killing that deer would be the ultimate act of worship, because by killing the deer, the tribe gets food, fuel, clothing, tools, etc.I do believe that human life is sacred, but:if I have to throw myself in front of a car to save my wife, I will do so, at the cost of my life;if you are trying to kill me or my family, and in that emergency I can come up with no solution that does not involve killing you, I will kill you;if my wife is pregnant and the only way to save her life is to kill the baby, I will order the baby killed.None of those acts is inconsistent with a belief that life is sacred.One thing I learned in law school was that killing is killing, but murder is a social definition.  In all of the above situations, I killed someone; in none of them was it murder.  A soldier killing an enemy soldier in battle is not murder; a soldier killing a civilian for sport is.  The state killing a convicted serial killer is not murder; security officers torturing a suspect to death is.

  5. MC_Shann says:

    Not sure why you dont post the link and let your followers make a fair assessment. For any one who wants to hear the full conversation click here…

    Please note that the pictures in the video do not represent the radio hosts views. They were done by whoever did the video. Your argument however, is fine if that were the full story. Pro-life advocates make clear that the unborn is an innocent human being. Those on death row are not.

  6. agnophilo says:

    @too_restless – Thanks for telling your story, and sharing your point of view.  For what it’s worth I don’t think having an abortion makes you evil, though I think late-term abortions are morally wrong.@Da__Vinci – I think I agree with you, lol.@musterion99 – Then say innocence is sacred, not life.  And the death penalty occasionally results in the execution of an innocent person.@Airborne_Muse – Sorry about the pro-choice/life thing, I fixed the text.  I type like a monkey on crack sometimes.  But yeah, I agree with your definitions, and while there is an exception to every rule I don’t think being gung ho about war or the death penalty is consistent with the view that life itself is sacred.  The criticism, it seems, is that the fetus is sacred, but civillians in a war zone, enemy combatants and death row inmates (all of whom are alive) are not.  It would be interesting to poll anti-war protesters to see how many are pro-life.

  7. agnophilo says:

    @MC_Shann – Then as I said above, innocence is sacred, not life.  And I didn’t post the link because the only person I criticized in the blog is the idiot pro-choice caller.  I was not criticizing you or the host of the show in this blog, I do not know why you feel the need for “your side” to be heard as if I were.

  8. agnophilo says:

    @MC_Shann – And I have readers, not “followers”.

  9. I am a pro-life pacifist, and I think you’re right, the belief that life is sacred should lead one to a complete refusal to kill.  But I don’t believe that life is sacred, so the whole “when does life begin” argument has never meant very much to me.  

  10. musterion99 says:

    @agnophilo – I don’t think pro-lifers believe that an innocent person should be executed. Again, that’s a non-sequiter. You didn’t make that distinction in your post.

  11. agnophilo says:

    @When_Will_I_Sing_Again – I agree.  I think people should be protected, not necessarily all life.@musterion99 – I addressed that, you don’t appear to have read my response.

  12. FalconBridge says:

    I’m pro choice and I support the death penalty.  I’m also anti war and consider myself a pacifist.  Makes sense to me.

  13. agnophilo says:

    @FalconBridge – How is executing people pacifistic?  

  14. musterion99 says:

    @agnophilo –  I addressed that, you don’t appear to have read my response.My comment was made on your post. You didn’t say that in the post.

  15. So many pro-lifers I know are Christians.  The Bible allows for capital punishment and that same Bible tells everyone that each person was crafted in the womb by God.  I am not sure why that is so hard to understand.  If someone kills someone, his life should be taken of him.  That is what the Bible says.  However, I think it is hard to compare someone who murdered someone with an innocent baby in the womb.

  16. but then if pro-lifers must be pacifists in order to not be hypocrites, then is it hypocrisy for pro-choicers to be pacifists?its such a confusing subject…

  17. being anti-abortion and pro-death penalty is not necessarily hypocrisy. you’ve presupposed the motive for being anti-abortion which isnt necessarily accurate. also, i dont know anyone who’s “pro war” but i do know people who are “pro-self defense.” your assumptions are drawn specifically for the purpose of accusing hypocrisy.

  18. MC_Shann says:

    @agnophilo – Innocence is sacred? Umm… Not quite. Innocence is describing the character/ trate of the particular human in question. Killing innocent human beings is wrong. As a side note, I think it’s funny that im typing this response after just coming home from Prison ministry. Your use of death row becomes a little less powerful with the fact that Christians are not only worried about the death of those innocent inside the womb but also a deep concern for the lives of the guilty held in incarceration. I personally am against the death penalty. Not because it kills but because several people were later found to be innocent of the crime. Until this type of error can be eliminated 100% I will remain opposed to it.

  19. The_ATM says:

    I am very anti-war.

  20. yarnspnr says:

    Try to imagine looking over the field at Gettysburg and seeing the thousands upon thousands of dead and dying men from both armies.  Now realize that these men, for the most part, prayed and continued to pray to the same god.  How anyone looking over that battlefield could think that human life is sactified to ANY god in any way is beyond my understanding.  I could list hundreds of other killing fields to make this point.  To humanity, life is cheap.  If indeed some god said, “Thou shalt not kill,” man added the word “except” immediately afterward.

  21. agnophilo says:

    @musterion99 – And I responded to you, and you ignored it.  Like you seem to be in the habit of doing.@TheTheologiansCafe – It isn’t “hard to understand”, it is self-contradictory.@raspberryjade – I think everyone should be sort of qualified pacifists.  Though a pro-choicer does not necessarily claim that life itself is sacred.@blonde_apocalypse – “being anti-abortion and pro-death penalty is not necessarily hypocrisy.” Many, if not most pro-choicers are anti-abortion to some degree.  I was referring to the belief that abortion was wrong specifically because life is sacred.”you’ve presupposed the motive for being anti-abortion which isnt necessarily accurate.” I can’t think of a pro-choicer I’ve ever talked to that does not say life is sacred.  And I said in the blog that if their views are not inconsistent than the blog does not apply to them.”also, i dont know anyone who’s “pro war” but i do know people who are “pro-self defense.” The war in iraq was not a war of self defense.  Nor were many of the wars we engage in.  I suppose I could have said “in favor of unnecessary wars” or something.”your assumptions are drawn specifically for the purpose of accusing hypocrisy.”Not really.  I treated it as an open question and heavily qualified my remarks to avoid generalizing.  And the purpose of the blog was to convey my thoughts about another exchange on MC shann’s blog.@MC_Shann – So life is sacred but we can end it, unless it’s someone who is innocent in which it is never alright, but there is nothing sacred about innocence?  This is nonsense.  And I am glad that you are opposed to the death penalty.  It’s also worth mentioning that due to the extensive appeals process it is actually more expensive to execute a prisoner than it is to incarcerate them for life.@The_ATM – Always nice to hear : )  It is perhaps the greatest evil ever invented.@yarnspnr – The response to this is invariably to blame humans for “falling short”.  Despite that the bible condones genocide and execution, and god supposedly slaughtered nearly every human, including unborn babies in their mothers’ womb.

  22. musterion99 says:

    @agnophilo – I’m undecided on the death penalty because of innocent people being executed. Do you think that if there’s DNA evidence, that’s enough to execute someone?

  23. agnophilo says:

    @Winsa – To the bolded part or the commentary?@musterion99 – I’m opposed to the death penalty in all cases, so no.

  24. liquor90 says:

    The death penalty is going away. Ha. Ha. I DON’T REALLY KNOW.

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