The War On Christm… Er, I Mean The First Amendment.

The “war on christmas” is not actually real, many people are cluing into this.  Now that’s not to say there isn’t a trend toward political correctness and a general “war” on individuality that goes on in the business world, making employees (especially in retail) generic to appeal to a broader customer base – that is real, but it is also omni-directional and affects everyone from christians to atheists, muslims, hindus, people with tattoos and piercings, unusual hair styles and so on, all of whom will get fired or reprimanded if they express themselves in an individual way in many work environments.  That is real, and is often called the “war on christmas” as though it only effects white conservative christians and is somehow a result of minorities ganging up on them to take away their rights, as though that were even possible. 

But that’s not what I’m even talking about.  I’m talking about how the largely fictional and skewed “war on christmas” is used to actually erode the first amendment to the constitution, namely the part about church-state separation.  In addition to being enraged at phrases like happy holidays, the “warriors” fighting this fictionalized struggle with atheists and other minorities (who aren’t fighting on the other side) often suggest that a tree being called a “holiday” tree instead of a christmas tree (in order to circumvent the first amendment’s clause against the government promoting or opposing any religious belief and use public funds to illegally promote a christian holiday) is deeply offensive.   Not because it’s illegal or because it violates the civil rights of minorities (don’t be silly), but because it doesn’t do it flagrantly enough.  No we want to call it a jesus tree.  We want to rub minorities’ faces in our use of their tax dollars (which advocate our god, also in violation of their first amendment rights) to promote our religion.  Because we, like sociopaths, think the rules are very good rules, but should only protect us and restrict everyone else.  Because this is a christian nation, and everyone else is just visiting.

I’m honestly not trying to bring anyone’s mood down this close to christmas, but I got into it about this with someone on their blog and it kind of pissed me off.  I’m going to assume that anyone who doesn’t want to read this has stopped reading and is drinking eggnog by now. 

So anyway this guy posted this well-circulated diatribe by ben stein about the “war on christmas” bashing atheists and such.  And I posted the link to the blog I did about it last year and let him know that stein was full of shit and that the diatribe actually outright lies in several places.

So the following exchange takes place:

Him:

“you may be surprised by this, but if you read other things on my blog, you will find I’m fairly liberal. . . so while this particular post is a bit more conservative than I would normally be, I actually agree with the general message.  Granted, I should have read the end of it a little better before I posted it (that’s a bit negative and self-righteous for my taste). . . but I liked the first part.  It’s not that I’m saying that we should bring God into public schools (that’s what PRIVATE schools are for!) or the workplace (everyone has their own beliefs and no one should be pressured one way or the other).  But it’s sad to me how everyone seems to be pushing God OUT of EVERYTHING, just to push Him out, whether it’s going to affect them or not.  It’s hard for me to put into words why this struck me the way it did.  Some of it hit home, for example, I would like to be able to say “Merry Christmas” on my “holiday cards” and not get blasted for it.  People are more accepting of others and appreciative of a well-intentioned blessing than some may believe.  On another note, I would like to take my students caroling at a CHRISTMAS Tree Lighting Ceremony and not be asked to keep the songs secular (which did happen this year). . . let’s face it. . . CHRIST is supposed to be the primary part of Christmas and it IS a CHRISTMAS tree. . .and the majority of music in the US is based on the European tradition, which is primarily sacred music. . . . and who do you think would come to a ceremony like this?  Even if Aetheists or Jewish citizens attended, I would like to give them the benefit of the doubt that they know what they are attending and what the tree is for. . . it’s not like anyone is forced to go. . . I’m rambling. . . sorry.  It’s been a rough December. . .  So while some of this IS negative, there are parts I appreciate.  Do I think all of the supposed “facts” provided are true?  Absolutely not – it goes a little overboard and I’m not a TOTAL idiot (maybe just a little one ).  Does some of the general message hit home with me?  Yes.  So, hate Ben Stein or not, to me, it’s not about the person writing it, there is SOME truth to the message and whether or not you agree, I will still say that I appreciate your post and Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to you.  Thanks!  If you’d like to keep chatting about it, I’m happy to continue!”

Me:

“You’ve been “blasted” for sending out christmas cards?  I’ve never heard of this actually happening to anyone.  As for religion in the workplace, that is a restriction that applies equally to everyone – or do you think an atheist cashier could tell you there is no god and not most likely get fired or otherwise reprimanded?  As for it being called a holiday tree, the government isn’t allowed to use tax dollars to support or oppose any religion and they flagrantly do so anyway with christian beliefs and holidays, using millions upon millions of tax dollars for religious decorations and events and get around the first amendment by calling it a “holiday” tree and pretending it’s neutral.  So you’re pissed that the government is actively promoting your religion with my tax dollars and giving christianity special treatment not given to any other religious group and doesn’t flaunt the fact on top of it?  Imagine if our situations were reversed and the government used millions of christians’ tax dollars to promote an islamic tradition and muslims were angry because they couldn’t explicitly mention allah in the invitation to the ceremony.  You’re already pissing and shitting on the constitution, what more do you want?  And the tree doesn’t have anything to do with jesus, it’s a german tradition.  And christmas is just yule, a pagan holiday that christians hijacked.” 

Him:

“Wow.  Thank you for proving my point.  I was looking at having a friendly conversation about these things, there really is no need to get so emotional or angry over it.  I’m not.  I don’t appreciate your language on my blog, nor do I appreciate the attack after I spent significant time just trying to explain myself in a non-confrontational, polite way.  I don’t know you, so I really don’t have an obligation to explain myself. I was just hoping for a fun conversation about these things, not a total attack on Christianity.   I would like to politely request that you not post on my wall again unless you can discuss things politely.  I’d rather not have to take the time out of my day to block you.  Merry Christmas.” 

Me:

“The only thing in my comment you might’ve found offensive was a) using the word shit, or b) giving facts about christmas.  There are no bad words, the context makes something good or bad, and clearly I was not insult you personally when I said “shit”.  As far as the latter, while many religious people find facts offensive, this makes little sense to me either.  So I’m not really sure what you’re so offended about.  I apologize if I came across as rude, but saying christians are being somehow persecuted if they can’t use my money to promote their views is offensive to me.  Merry christmas to you too though, for what it’s worth.  Though given the context you may have been saying that as a dig.  And how did I “prove” your point?  You were met with mild hostility for advocating the views in this diatribe and bashing atheists, not for saying merry christmas or putting up a christmas tree which no atheist I’ve ever met finds offensive.  Hell my avatar has a santa cap.”

Then for the rest I’ll just give my in-line response (which quotes his next response):

“A) I appreciate your response and the
apology; B) it was the tone of the message, not necessarily the full
content (other than you saying I was pissing and shitting on the
constitution – that was nice);”

Christians in america are, as a matter of fact, pissing and shitting on the constitution, and it isn’t nice.

“C) I’m sorry but I interpreted your
hostility as more than mild – it was unneccessarily harsh and rude. . .”

Yeah well I’m not responsible for your interpretation. I was speaking matter-of-factly, there is no “tone” on the internet, it is mostly read into something by the reader.  What, if anything, did I actually say that offended you?  Or did merely disagreeing with you offend you?

“D) I appreciate the santa cap on your avatar “

Someone on xanga made it for me – it turned out very nice. [Edit: Thanks again seedsower, and very good job.]

“And
the Merry Christmas was not meant as a dig – it was genuine, despite
your obvious hostility toward me for no good reason than a silly blog
post.” 

Actually I wasn’t hostile toward you, I took issue with what you are advocating – the bullying of atheists and non-christians under the guise of self-defense.  You are literally saying I have no reason to be offended just because you posted a blog bashing and vilifying atheists for things we don’t actually do while advocating violating our first amendment rights.  If I did a blog attacking christians by saying that all priests are pedophiles or something and saying we must “fight back” against that fictional threat by violating their civil rights, would you be upset?  Might you have a vague “tone” that was slightly on edge?

You spread bile and hatred against atheists and then act as though an atheist taking issue with it (calmly and rationally and without resorting to a single personal attack or insult whatsoever by the way) is somehow offensive.

Christians almost universally refuse to vote for atheists freezing 1/4 of america out of public office entirely, use our tax dollars to promote their religion and vilify anyone who stands up for the rights christians routinely enjoy as evil, rude and un-patriotic and all we have to do to make you feel “persecuted” is exist and not agree with you.

You don’t like my tone?  Boo fucking hoo.

“As it is, this will be my last response to you.  Please don’t
post again. As we obviously don’t see eye to eye this is just a waste of
time.  You have your beliefs and I have mine.  I’d rather just leave it
at that.”

Yes, because listening and thinking is too much to ask of a man of god – and caring?  Forget about it.

“Thank you and have a wonderful holiday season, whatever you may or may not celebrate.”

You know I was until someone posted a hateful diatribe vilifying me and advocating the violation of my civil rights and then told me I was a bad person because I didn’t fellate them enough while commenting on it.

Sorry if this is a drag to anyone, just pisses me off.

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About agnophilo

Nerd.
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24 Responses to The War On Christm… Er, I Mean The First Amendment.

  1. Ugh. It’s the Christmas season. For Christians  it’s about celebrating the birth of Jesus Christ. For all of us, it’s also about spending time with our loved ones, be thankful, being happy, taking time off the hustle and bustle of our working lives and relaxing and enjoying the life we live. Why can’t people just leave it at that? If somebody gets offended at me telling them merry Christmas because they aren’t a Christian, well, merry Christmas to them anyways because they certainly need it. As a Christian who knows and is often friends with Atheists, Agnostics, Hindus, Unitarian Universalists, Jehovah’s witnesses, Mormons, Muslims, and even a Satanist, I have never felt a need to defend Christmas. Anyone who claims there is a war on Christmas, in America at least, is making up their own version of reality.

  2. agnophilo says:

    @TheBlueNinjaTiger – Thanks, and I agree.  I think when people get miffy about being told merry christmas it’s just because of the presumption that they’re christian, but it’s usually just mildly annoys people at most, and 99% of non-christians just take it as a nice sentiment.

  3. AmeliaHart says:

    I simply demand consistency. To me the holiday season is mired with religious references. The word “Yule” (yuletide, yulelog etc…) refers to some Norse/Germanic god/religious ritual. Yet people will not protest against the word “yule” being displayed in front of a public place. In the city I see menorahs up, along with Christmas wreaths/trees and Santa Clauses. I have not seen people protest the menorahs or the Santa Clauses even though both are religously related, (for Santa Claus is St. Nicholaus and even the name Kris Kringle is religious, “Chriskindle”) yet only the “Christmas” wreaths/trees are supposedly offensive. So why do we attack the word “Christmas” and not “Yule” or “Santa Claus/Kris Kringle” or “Menorah?” We should just call it “holiday” and “season’s greetings” and “fat guy who gives me gifts” and “candle holder with too many candles to hold.” In the past I’ve only the heard the word “Christmas” in contest. What about all the other words we use? Wait, actually even if you refer to the word of “holiday” it actually means “holy”-day! The word holy is also a religious reference (granted more broad but that still leaves out the atheists!) So I guess all I can say is “Season’s Greetings.” Or we can just stop nitpicking. Why protest a Christmas Tree? Afterall a Holiday Tree is still a Holy-day tree. Shall we just call it Winter Season Tree? Or December Tree? I seriously think that the public conveniently forgets the religious implications of the name “Santa Claus” or “Kris Kringle” because God-forbid we affect consumer shopping. I also do not know who started the whole “war against Christmas.” It’s kind of like the chicken and the egg. We have both sides taking it too f*cking seriously. So f*ck it. I’m gonna enjoy my yulelog, decorate my Christmas tree and collect presents from good Ol’ St. Nick.And a Happy Chanukah to you ser.

  4. The mistletoe, giving of gifts and celebrating the winter solstice (not to mention all the little baking projects) were taken from Celtic Pagan traditions, so they highjacked two distinctly different pre-christian cultures and decided to claim them for their own. The entire religion is a mishmash of beliefs and traditions that precede their own. There’s not a single belief or practice that is original to christianity, not one.Yet every year we get treated to a slew of ridiculous drama regarding ‘their’ holiday. If they didn’t want to be inclusive perhaps they should have come up with something that wasn’t already being done for centuries prior to the birth of their religion. THEN they’d be justified in protesting. Having to include the people whose traditions you’re using is not the same as being persecuted, nor is it a ‘war’ on ‘your’ holiday. ** This isn’t directed at all christians, just the ones who think like Bill O’Reilly and Glenn Beck.

  5. jenessa1889 says:

    @AmeliaHart – I think you may be confusing public and private here.   private money can erect a menorah or a Christmas tree, or a nativity scene, or a crucifix, or whatever they want and display it as they please.   It’s on state property with government funded celebrations that no modernly celebrated religious symbolism can be used.Yule, as you said, represents Norse mythology, and we can call it mythology today without offending anyone because no one alive still believes it (or at least no organized group), so the word yule hardly counts as a religious display.additionally, there are thousands of words that comes from religious roots, that today have totally innocuous neutral connotations.   There is no way for all those words to be avoided.   Holiday can now be used to discuss the 4th of July, which is hardly a religious celebration, so whatever original context the word had is now gone.Calling it a Christmas tree, on the other hand, clearly establishes that we’re having a christian-only currently practiced tradition on state or federal grounds, which is not allowed.   Granted, I’m not saying that that would be some huge travesty, but as an atheist I feel it’s important to stop religious encroachment into government before it’s done in a problematic way, not after.You personally can say Christmas all you want.   you can kneel down in the middle of state property and say a prayer out loud.You are absolutely not obligated to only say seasons greetings.   you can say Merry Christmas all you want.   personally I don’t think it’s polite if you don’t know the person’s religious affiliation, but go for it regardless, and if you know they’re christian no one is going to be offended.   saying happy holidays was created because it’s innocuous and applies to any religion or lack there of, so it’s more inclusive and therefore more polite in my opinion for when you’re not sureThe state and agents acting as representatives of that state, on the other hand, cannot organize and fund with public tax dollars an event which clearly celebrates one religion.   Is it really that big a deal if they call it a holiday tree (even most atheists are celebrating one holiday or another during this season) to make everyone feel welcome?Christmas isn’t being singled out because people hate Christians or something, it’s being singled out because Christians keep trying to push Christmas into the public sector.   I’m sure we’d hear the same stink about Chanukah if Jews made up 75% of the country.

  6. @AmeliaHart – You have to call it a Nondenominational Wintertime Tree.In all seriousness though, I don’t think I have ever heard of a single person getting offended when someone wished them a Happy-something that was different from what they actually celebrate. And anyone who does get offended is idiotic and overly sensitive, and so obsessed with their religion that they can’t see past it long enough to realize that, at the heart of the matter, the other person was wishing them joy and peace, regardless of which holiday was mentioned. And the commenters above me make really good points – pretty much NONE of the Christian Christmas traditions are actually Christian… so they’re getting pissed at the fact that they can’t exclusively claim holiday traditions that they ripped off from someone else anyway? How does that make sense?

  7. vexations says:

    I don’t care what words people use to discuss the Christmas Holiday Season….I do, however, strongly endorse the separation of church and state at any level of government (local, state, or national).  Churches are tax-exempt organizations and should therefore not need the use of my tax dollars for any purpose.

  8. AmeliaHart says:

    @jenessa1889 – I’ve seen menorahs on street lamps and parks, which I imagine are public. And also in some state capitol buildings. I didn’t say anything about the nativity scene. That I could understand as being religious (because it’s so obvious). But a “Christmas” tree is pretty innocuous. I mean there are plenty of Christmas movies that are called Christmas movies and have absolutely no religious affiliation or meaning at all.  To me the word “Christmas” has gone the way of Santa Claus, Kris Kringle, St. Nick (all of which are Christian words and affiliations). It seems to me only recently the word “Christmas” has gotten any heat. If there is a sign that says “Jesus Christ is our Born Savior” on a state building then yes that’s wrong. But if it says “Merry Christmas,” how is it any different than having a Santa Claus displayed on a public building?  The word “Christmas” has become synonymous with the season, just as “holiday” has become synonymous with “vacation” or “day off.”  My question is, why the word “Christmas?” Why not any other words? Why not Santa Claus or Kris Kringle? After all Kris Kringle has the same problem as Christmas because it has “Christ” in it. And Santa Claus has the Spanish word “saint” in it!  Seriously, consumerism conspiracy!  LOL Moreover, even if Yule has become mostly obsolete, it is still a form of religion, celebrated by an (extremely) small minority. But regardless should we not adhere to separation of Church and State, even if it is a tiny group?   So in summary, my simple question is why “Christmas?” What about everything else in the season that is so obviously Christian/religious related? @Lost_In_Reverie – A nativity scene I could understand being offensive in pubicly owned property. But the word “Christmas” is? To me the word “Christmas” is simply synonymous with the season. Just as the words “Santa Claus” and “Kris Kringle” are pretty innocuous, just as “holiday/holyday” has become synonymous with “vacation.” So why the word “Christmas?” It’s so nitpicky to me. But generally I agree that most people I know who aren’t Christian don’t care how you greet them. But I have seen in my area endure the whole “holiday/Christmas” tree debate. To make it a “law” of some kind. To me it’s like you are basically arguing to replace one innocuously religious word for another. Strange.

  9. TheSutraDude says:

    this war on Christmas thing is ridiculous. i was born into a family of Christian ministers. my father was a minister. there was a point when i almost went down that road in life myself. i haven’t been a Christian in over two decades.  when i was i became aware of the fact there were people where i grew up of other religions, mostly Jewish. they were in the minority for sure. i was in high school at the time and i realized AND understood then that it could be offensive to someone if i assumed the person to be a Christian and i blurted out Merry Christmas. i began wishing people “happy holidays” at that point unless someone said to me Merry Christmas first. i never had an issue with saying Happy Holidays then and i don’t now. compare this so called war on Christmas with some other attitudes in society. there are still men who resent the expansion of women’s rights and that women are in the workplace and not at home in the kitchen. these types of men think of equality for women as a cause for what’s wrong in society and think of the good ol’ days as those depicted in the popular show “Mad Men”. women’s rights are a war on a patriarchal society. this war on Christmas is similar to something else that unfortunately exists still in our society, the “war on the white race”. there are still people, namely those in white supremacist groups who believe equality for non-whites is a war on the white race. fortunately their view of the world is not supported by the majority of Americans but it is still existent enough to make noise. i understand you are speaking about religion in government but even the corporate world has to a large extent realized sexual, political and religious preferences do not belong in the workplace. for example, the cost of lawsuits have caused corporations to rid the workplace of sexual innuendo. also people are getting paid to work not to pick up partners or argue over politics and religion. these topics erode the workplace. human resources departments understand how easily the even the appearance of favoritism over sex, politics and religion in the workplace can erode trust and employee morale. “she was given the promotion because she wears short skirts” and “he was given a promotion because he and the boss are of the same religion” have been all too familiar murmurs in the workplace. on the other hand as i said, i am no longer a Christian but if someone says Merry Christmas to me i say Merry Christmas back. i’m not a Muslim but if someone says Eid Mubarak i say Eid Mubarak back.   

  10. jenessa1889 says:

    @AmeliaHart – The way I see it Christmas still refers to the Christian holiday specifically, just as Chanukah refers to the Jewish holiday specifically, and just as a menorah is clearly Jewish a Christmas tree is clearly about christmas.  Not sure how they’re getting away with menorahs, but I’ve not seen that in my area.  I think Yule like holiday is not religious anymoreWe’ll have to agree to disagree.  The way I see it Christmas isn’t being targeted, it’s just that most of the country is Christian so most of the things people try to have in public buildings will be christmas-related.

  11. AmeliaHart says:

    @jenessa1889 – But I question whether Christians or non-Christians are to blame for the exaggerated reaction over the word “Christmas.” Typically the issue arises when someone sues a school/public building/public property for using the word “Christmas.” At least from what I’ve seen. But if we must do that then all menorahs, Santa Clauses/Kris Kringles, mentions of “yule” should be taken out too. Anything with religious affiliation (major or minor) should be taken out. They can decorate with snowflakes etc. Perhaps Frosty the Snowman. Yet to me that seems so extreme and kind of sad. I would rather have it where we should represent all types of holiday, religious and non-religious displays be promoted. In that way, the state isn’t just promoting one specific holiday/religion.

  12. @jenessa1889 – Pagans worldwide still celebrate Yule or the Winter Solstice, which is essentially the same thing, whichever we decide to call it. there may not be as many Pagans as christians these days, but it isn’t a completely dead practice.

  13. jenessa1889 says:

    @ZombieMom_Speaks – Huh I didn’t know that.  Regardless I think it clearly has a secular connotation the way most people use it today

  14. jenessa1889 says:

    @AmeliaHart – i don’t see why the state should display any religious symbols.   why can’t people be satisfied with displaying whatever they want in their own private homes, on their own private lawns, in and around their own private businesses, and all over their own private malls.   why does the state house have to do anything?   Sure if some secretary is bored she can hang up some wreaths or lights, but why waste public tax dollars and time with elaborate displays that most of us won’t see anyway because most of us never go into the court house or town assembly or whatever

  15. AmeliaHart says:

    @jenessa1889 – So we should get rid of Christmas Tree and Menorah Lightings in public display? Like in DC/NYC or in public parks etc…

  16. laytexduckie says:

    I had to design a holiday card last week at work. And I was reminded (as I also kept in mind before) that I wasn’t allowed to write “Merry Christmas” or place a Christmas tree in the design. I stuck with the ol’ hot cocoa and snowing outside the window theme as well as “Happy Holidays.”I also find it hypocritical when some Christians say they are the most persecuted of all religious groups, when in fact, some of them actually persecute Muslims, atheists and other non-Christians. There are also some I know who told me that if someone said “Happy Holidays” instead of “Merry Christmas,” they are a terrorist. *shrugs*

  17. jenessa1889 says:

    @AmeliaHart – depends on who put it up and who’s paying to maintain it.   sometimes things are on public property, like the sidewalk or in a park, but a private business put them there and pay someone to water the tree or replace the light bulbs/light the candles etc.    i don’t mind them being in public, but i don’t think the state or federal government should waste money on that, especially when it causes all this bullshit arguing about it on the news and in courts, which ends up costing them even more.in my area a lot of private businesses get together and pay to put lights down main street and stuff and the local government approves it, but the businesses pay for it

  18. When the Government starts going to private citizens houses and telling them to take down the Nativity scene off their lawn…then there is a war and I will join them in their protests….until then it is a figment of their imaginations.

  19. AmeliaHart says:

    @jenessa1889 –  Are you against them being displayed in or near government buildings if it’s done by a private organization? I am guess you are opposed to the National Menorah which is lit on White House grounds, whose festival is co-sponsored by Baltimore County.  The National Christmas Tree in DC has many private sponsors. It is my understanding that the National Menorah does not have as many. In fact, perhaps without Baltimore County’s sponsorship one could argue that the National Menorah would go away. But the National Christmas Tree (which has many backers) would most likely still survive.  Would that be ok? Would a Nativity scene sponsored by all private organizations be ok? (It wasn’t ok with the ACLU). In the case of private organizations having opportunity to display on public grounds, we may see an over abundant surge of Christian symbols, but less popular ones, like Hanukah be even less visible.  Is that ok?

  20. jenessa1889 says:

    @AmeliaHart – i think it depends a lot on the circumstances, but more or less yes, if a private corporation pays for it and it’s not like cluttering up the  place too much then who cares.   however, i think each example needs to be examined individually, as there is certainly a line past which it becomes a government endorsement, and like I said i’d rather stop religious encroachment before it’s harmful and not after.it would definitely be an issue if christian religious groups filled the park with crosses all over the place, and our government has an interest in making a park a place people of all religions can enjoy, but if a church wants to put angels on the light posts outside the church that’s a public place where it’s much less obtrusive.so basically, each situation needs to be examined separatelycertainly i think state buildings where our laws are made, like the governors office and the senate and court buildings, should remain religious-symbol free.

  21. Love your arguement!  And I have NEVER known anyone to be offended by the phrase Merry Christmas but OH how many folks have taken offense at Happy Holidays.It must be so difficult to live in a world of such imagined persecution.  I should pity them, I suppose.  But I just don’t have the time.

  22. AmeliaHart says:

    @jenessa1889 – I could see permitting come into effect, though I would be sad to see the National Menorah and National Tree go (though I believe the tree is in the park so it might be ok but the menorah is on White House grounds.) But I question whether holiday decorations in front of state and federal buildings reads endorsement if everything is represented.

  23. jenessa1889 says:

    @AmeliaHart – Update: turns out they pretty much already do what I was suggesting, at least in my area.   There’s a nativity scene and Christmas trees in the local park, and Angels and wreaths on the street lights, all paid for by the local knights of Columbus, and now that I think about it they’ve always been there.   Idk if any of the lights around here are put up by the state

  24. seedsower says:

    Glad you like the hat.

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