Trunthebigot (And The Nature Of Morality).

Trunthepaige, who awhile back blocked me for winning an argument, deleted my comments and told the christian blogger I had been conversing with in her comment section that she blocked me for calling her a bitch and a cunt (which of course never happened, you can read the whole saga here if you wish), recently wrote yet another blog bashing atheists which showed up in my feed because someone rec’d a comment or something, and I had to log out to read it.  The blog (here) and the following comments maintain that atheists have made no contributions to the world and only cause pain and suffering, citing communist dictators as the only “real” atheists and as being entirely motivated by atheism.

When confronted with examples of countless atheists that have done good, such as throngs and hoards of scientists that didn’t believe in a personal god, she claims that their good deeds had nothing to do with atheism.  See the double standard?  If I murder you, it’s because I’m an evil atheist.  If I risk my life to save yours, it’s because I’m around christians and their goodness has rubbed off on me.  This reminds me of a page I saw on a creationist website recently which gave a quote from charles darwin where he described the harm that helping the weak does in human society, then concludes:

“Nor can we check our sympathy, even at the urging of hard reason, without deterioration in the noblest part of our nature… We must, therefore, bear the undoubtedly bad effects of the weak surviving and propagating their kind.”

The quote was characterized as evidence of darwin’s “brutality” and the page was titled “darwin versus compassion”.  People see what they want to see.

Anyway, trun insists that these people only did good and were allowed to do good by merit of christianity.  That christianity was the basis for free speech, and that they could not have made their (apparently non-existent) contribution without christian scientists that came before.  While this is true it is also true that scientists like isaac newton couldn’t have made their contributions without the work of muslim mathematicians who invented the language of science before him, or the countless pagans which invented the forerunners of his language, the alchemy that became chemistry, the astrology that became astronomy and so on.  No human invents their field of research from the ground up, all humans rely on each other (which is a really beautiful concept if you think about it).  But in trun’s mind, atheists rely on christians and christians rely on no one.  If an atheist helps a christian it’s just the christian’s awesomeness hitting the atheist and bouncing back.  I suppose if an atheist saved her from drowning she’d ask him for an apology for not doing it sooner.

This pathological notion that atheists are innately inferior to everyone else can be tested the same way that any bigotry can be tested, by going out and seeing if a subjective mental impression cannot be confounded by real world evidence.  If, as many christians in the US maintain, our sole source of morality and kindness and altruism was their religion then the non-christian world would be in chaos, it would be in perpetual violent upheaval, there would be crime rates through the roof and starving people everywhere.  And while you can cherry-pick examples of countries in some of these states, none of them that I am aware of are very secular.  The most secular countries like sweden and norway are places where people are generally happy, the crime rates are low, there’s little pollution, and they have every indication of a smoothly running, highly developed society.  I doubt they’re perfect, but from a statistical point of view they’re not what one would expect if the fundamentalist narrative about morality were true.

The reason is that morality in some sense actually necessarily pre-dates civilization.  Without the instinct and desire and lust to do good or an impulse toward solidarity (or conformity, which actually gets us into a lot of trouble much of the time) you can’t have a social species, whether it’s a school of fish or a flock of birds, or a giant metropolis of primates with big brains.  You couldn’t have, for instance, meat-eating predators working together in a pack who are often hungry and made of meat without an instinct toward helping and against hurting each other.  That being said what we believe is important because our instincts and emotions and all of these guides that are built into our brains are actually informed by our intellect, our knowledge and our perception of reality.  If for instance science informs us that smoking while pregnant is harmful to the baby, this allows a mother’s maternal instinct to kick in and make her quit smoking.  Without that knowledge her instinct (which is not omniscient) would have sat idly by as she did untold harm to her own flesh and blood. 

So what we believe and understand about the world is a vital part of being a good person, making correct decisions and generally having a positive effect on the world.  Similarly if there were a hell that would inform our morality, because just like not knowing the effects of smoking makes you ill-equipped to make the decision of whether or not to smoke during pregnancy, so too not knowing about eternal fiery consequences of our actions would make us ill-equipped to make life decisions.  If having premarital sex or masturbating would send me (or my loved ones) to a place of eternal doom I’d sure want to know.  But just like with any information, the crux is whether that information is reliable or accurate.  If there’s a hell it matters, if there isn’t it doesn’t.  If smoking is harmful it matters, if it isn’t it doesn’t.  And unlike smoking which can be empirically studied, hell is an article of faith.  Which to me makes it not something I’m going to base my life upon.  But that doesn’t mean there is no basis for morality for the atheist – after all, just like with smoking, it is a fact that unkind words do harm.  And physical abuse, and careless action and war and poverty and many, many things.  That sometimes my money will help someone else more than it helps me is also a fact.  That humility is often beneficial and arrogance can be harmful.  That forgiveness allows us to go on with our lives.  That we would want compassion if we were in someone else’s shoes.

All facts.

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About agnophilo

Nerd.
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26 Responses to Trunthebigot (And The Nature Of Morality).

  1. “I suppose if an atheist saved her from drowning she’d ask him for an apology for not doing it sooner.”This made me lol.    Unfortunately, some people are stupid beyond hope.

  2. My problem with her is that she can’t write a simple coherent English sentence. Illiterates usually aren’t worth the bother.

  3. Doitean says:

    You said all of this much better than I did. Thank you~

  4. YouToMe says:

    I will go against my policy to not rec blogs like this because while I wish you’d change title and mention of person, I think your message for better part of blog was right on and worth a recommendation. If it weren’t for you, I would have lost faith. Enough said. You sharpen me every day. M even noted and said so. So, “amen”

  5. Paige is easily among the dumbest, most ignorant AND most arrogant and self-deluded people ever to walk the Earth. Her so-called arguments (and to call them that would mean to stretch the definition of “argument” to include pretty much anything) are ALWAYS fallacious. Not once has she produced a coherent argument – at least when it comes to talking about secularism/atheism, evolution, or science in general (I may have missed some. LOL.)  To quote utrow1: I have never seen anybody self-destruct their own arguments and credibility with such terrifying conviction quite like Trun does.Yep. That about sums it up. She’s nothing but a rambling buffoon that THINKS of herself as intelligent and articulate. You should see how hard I’m laughing. She’s a classic example of the Dunning-Kruger effect.

  6. @In_Reason_I_Trust – Paige is easily among the dumbest, most ignorant AND most arrogant and self-deluded people ever to walk the Earth. Her so-called arguments (and to call them that would mean to stretch the definition of “argument” to include pretty much anything) are ALWAYS fallacious.”I’d like to think that her entries as intellectually dishonest flame bait: sometimes seeding good discussion, but at others, sparking petty drama.

  7. @sometimestheycomebackanyway – “My problem with her is that she can’t write a simple coherent English sentence. Illiterates usually aren’t worth the bother.”There was an old user on this site, LoBornlytesThoughtpalace, who was actually much worse. I guess you wouldn’t know, she was before your time.

  8. TheSutraDude says:

    just for the record the U.S. and freedom of speech was established in part as a guarantee that the country would not be a church-state. the founding fathers rejected the church run states of Europe. many of the founding fathers were Masons who rejected Christianity as a governing ideal because under the church-state of Europe at the time people could be persecuted for disagreeing with the church. One Mason was the man known as the father of The Constitution, James Madison. Paul Revere was a Mason. the Boston Tea Party was planned at a pub well known as a Mason meeting place. Benjamin Franklin, John Adams, and Thomas Jefferson were Masons. the pyramid and eye on our currency is an occult symbol recognized by Masons. 

  9. Trun strikes me as the “too stupid to take seriously” type. Some conservatives on here like mtngirlsouth and bakersdozen2 I can get along with because they’re generally nice and don’t cry for attention. Trun, on the other hand, is always begging for attention and has some personal vendetta against atheists, for some reason.

  10. This is beautifully written. I mean, you should submit this for publishing. You’re a great writer.Also I love your music selection.

  11. Nous_Apeiron says:

    @Celestial_Teapot – LaBorn was fun, in any of her incarnations.  She called me a godless communist for insisting that she stop misrepresenting the facts of an ACLU case.  Good times, good times.But with regard to the topic at hand, the premise that (group x) are evil and have not brought any good to the world is a pretty old argument that nonetheless doesn’t seem to die.  I’ve seen people use it on so many groups it’s ridiculous.  Jews, atheists, and Christians are popular targets for it among the English-speaking community online.  I’m amazed that anyone who spends any amount of time on the Internet would use it in earnest.

  12. @Celestial_Teapot – Apparently loborn is legendary and always on people’s minds. It goes to my point about how illiterates aren’t worth the bother, nevertheless.Nobody ever accuses me of being trunthepaige. Though it is notable that her latest post is at the top of Top Blogs and has 111 comments and this post has but 13 comments and is mired at the bottom.

  13. This is relevant to my interests.

  14. lorelei says:

    It is very difficult to talk to people who oppose your viewpoints, especially when they are so very adamant about their own.

  15. pinoyAKUSAN says:

    Do you really need that music player on your blog?

  16. agnophilo says:

    @the_rocking_of_socks – I don’t pretend to know what her problem is.@Doitean – Thanks, and you’re welcome : )@YouToMe – Awwww : )@Kristenmomof3 – Sadly.@In_Reason_I_Trust – Ego has a way of distorting one’s perception of reality.  The sad thing is much of the time people who are like this aren’t even trying to be an asshole – just endlessly repeating a cycle of compulsively avoiding pain that began in childhood, tearing others down and exaggerating their self image to restore their self esteem.  I don’t know if this is trun, but whatever.  This blog really wasn’t about tearing her down, it was just about tearing down her bile and bigotry because it hurts atheists.@Celestial_Teapot – I was thinking the same thing, lol.  Thanks for saving me the effort or responding.@TheSutraDude – I know.  I should’ve clarified that the second bit was true, not the free speech bit.@AYoungContrarian – mtngirlsouth is as bad as trunthepaige, has blocked me and has made blogs claiming morality is a “problem” for atheists.@DrummingMediocrity – Always glad when someone enjoys the playlist : )  And thanks – I have my moments.@Nous_Apeiron – People need to feel good about themselves – one way to do this is to convince yourself of your (or your group’s) relative superiority to others.  People hate out of insecurity and the need to belong, it doesn’t matter if it’s anti-atheist christians or the KKK (who are also christians, not to pile on).@sometimestheycomebackanyway – Much of the hits and comments are back and forth arguments with trun about the premise of her blog (despite the fact that she never even mentioned my name or gave specifics about the blog that were accurate) and people bickering back and forth.  Absolutely no one has taken issue with the claims or ideas in this blog in the comments, or shown up to defend trun (despite the fact that I don’t block anyone, even you in your various incarnations).  A blog’s merit is not determined by the number of hits it gets, and conversely controversy often attracts more attention and activity than consensus.@John_Q_Normal – Good to know.@lorelei – I don’t mind people disagreeing, not in the least.  It’s closed-mindedness or hatefulness I mind.@pinoyAKUSAN – Yes, I do.  It’s absolutely necessary.  Any comment on the actual contents of the blog?

  17. YouToMe says:

    * derp derpI just woke up

  18. TheSutraDude says:

    @agnophilo – i knew what you meant man. i pointed that out for any readers who are not aware of it. i know you are aware of it. 

  19. agnophilo says:

    @YouToMe – Har.And g’night, I assume the phone died.@TheSutraDude – It’s all good : )  Just clarifying.  And I should’ve been more specific.

  20. YouToMe says:

    Yupsville. I would’ve called if I could, but I couldnt.

  21. YouToMe says:

    ( I deleted my comment. Just realized I didn’t want to post publicly my whereabouts)

  22. YouToMe says:

    @YouToMe – well YOU know. Just didnt want to share with the class

  23. YouToMe says:

    @YouToMe – Trying new free xanga app. Clearly having troubles. Lol

  24. For being an idiot, she certainly keeps you all busy talking about her.  Haha.

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