Response To Anti-Gay Creationist.

This is a response I gave to a creationist on xanga defending kirk cameron saying homosexuality is “destructive to the foundations of civilization” etc.  She was arguing in other comments that he wasn’t a homophobe (as someone had commented) because he wasn’t “afraid” of gay people and that what he was saying wasn’t discrimination because he’s simply stating what he believes.  I was a bit more pissy in my response than usual, but I figured it was blogworthy anyhow:

Saying that a minority is a threat to society that must be dealt with is how you promote discrimination of that minority.  American evangelists promoted the idea that, for instance, most child molesters are gay in uganda, which lead to legislation being proposed to make being gay punishable by death.  If you think christians, gays, jews or whoever are by their mere existence an automatic threat to you and yours it will be very easy to persecute them.

“But keep in
mind this – Kirk Cameron (NOR I) believes ANY of that hooey about being
part of the “Animal Kingdom”…”

Because you are both ignorant of the meaning of the word animal and have zero understanding of taxonomy.  Are you a mammal?  Guess what, mammals are animals.

“The bible talks about the differences
between us and animals and how we have responsibility being more
cognitive than them and actually “Lord’s” over them. “

The bible was written thousands of years before these terms were invented and in no way could possibly refer to “animal” in a taxonomical sense.

“They do
things out of pure instinct… AKA, A dog will hump a LEG if he’s

Google “foot fetish” or “dry humping”, people do that too.

“so scientifically, I could also say that it’d be totally
natural for men to hump legs when they’re horny (by the logic that
things that are scientifically observed in the animal kingdom)”

First of all there’s nothing scientific about your nonsense, you don’t even know what science is.  And secondly everything that exists is natural (ie found in nature).  Natural does not mean good.  Some species eat their young, others care for their young.  Good things are good, bad things are bad regardless of whether they are “natural” or not.

believes that we are all CREATIONS of a most high God with a purpose,
and a destiny, and that if the bible says something is one way, it’s
because it’s dangerous to mankind.”

So are you going to execute gay men?  The part of the bible that says homosexuality is an abomination says to kill them.  So either promote that or shut the hell up.  But even you know that is psychotic and evil.

“Kirk does NOT believe that God gives
laws to be “mean” (Nor do I) He believes that God gives laws because bad
things happen not only to people, but to a civilization when you don’t
follow them. (Since ya know, He made everything)”

Yes, 9/11 happened because men kiss each other.  Or maybe it happened because you married an atheist.  The bible after all says not to be unequally yoked with unbelievers.  So maybe you’re an evil sinner that needs to be done away with for the good of society too.  I bet you don’t even cover your head when you pray as required of women in first corinthians.  Yeah I bet all kinds of nasty evil things can be attributed to you.  We should treat you like you’re a drug dealer or a pedophile or something.  Remember, it’s not discrimination if you believe in it.

“Hence, one
reason that Christians try to tell others that they’re wrong on a matter
is because they truly CARE… If God almight gave such a law, then it
must be really bad for them.”

So stop being a hypocrite and divorce your husband, wear a burka, don’t let any man come near you on your period or for a week after you’ve had a child (twice as long if it’s a girl), repeal women’s right to vote because it’s exercising authority over a man which is a clear no-no in scripture.  Or alternately you could give your vote to your husband since he is allowed to reverse any promise you make.  Of course you couldn’t with your first husband, and divorce is punishable by death so I guess you’re just out of luck there.

Want me to go on you ignorant hypocrite?

“NOW, you could argue, sure that
“Hey, nothing bad happens to gay people…” That’s fine, maybe you’re
right in your own eyes. But, I’m sure that if there is a God,
and He gave a decree, then there’s a reason.”

It’s true no matter what the evidence is.  Gotta love closed reasoning.

“That’s all I’m
saying. I understand that a lot of people see “gay hater” or
“homophobe,” etc… but keep in mind that while some people MIGHT be
that way, most of us (christians) actually care about humanity and
believe in a loving forgiving God who gave us rules to follow for a
reason. Now, if you don’t want any part of that, that’s fine, and we’ll
probably leave you alone (unless we’re the Westboro Baptist Church :P)
But, care is usually the way that we are taught.”

I don’t see a gay hater or a homophobe.  I see a vast sea of hypocrites and ignoramuses.  Masquerading as champions of virtue and only pushing for the enforcement of rules that effect minorities.  Or is there a ban on divorce, premarital sex etc coming right after the ban on gay marriage?  What, did you pray about it and god told you whatever you do is kosher?

You’re all ignorant and full of shit, every single last one of you.  And by “you” I mean people that push this bronze age bullshit and pretend they’re following god’s will when they’re really just hiding behind scripture to justify their own intolerance.  And then at the drop of a hat feign persecution.

“I personally
have never been disrespectful to anyone I know who is gay (unless it was
about something other than being gay). I have also only talked to
someone about being gay if they asked me, or came to me for advice, etc.”

You just think that a book that calls for them to be rounded up and killed is holy and perfect.  If I were gay I’d find that pretty disrespectful.  Kind of like telling a jew mein hampf is a wonderful philosophy.

“Kirk Cameron has been in hollywood most of his life, I would
assume the above is similar for him. In his position, he KNOWS gay
people.  That’s all.”

Yeah, and he and you are both still ignorant and hypocrites who don’t even try to follow scripture (unless you agree with what it says of course).

And the response?  Replying to everyone but me.


About agnophilo

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46 Responses to Response To Anti-Gay Creationist.

  1. heckels says:

    Great job, we are fortunate to have you on our side. I personally think this is a pretty cut and dry and black and white. If you believe certain groups of people deserve more rights than others, than that makes you a bigot. I’ve always felt the word homophobe was a bit of a misnomer; I don’t think those people are afraid of gays just like a lot of sexist or racist people aren’t afraid of the other gender or other races. which is why I use the term bigot. It seems to fit better. 

  2. agnophilo says:

    @heckels – I try not to be on anyone’s side per se.  And people who think anyone should have fewer rights has more ideology or ego than compassion and empathy.

  3. Kellsbella says:

    I think probably some of the problems could be stemming from folks taking scripture from the Old Testament and pulling it out of context. Then again, it could just be misinterpretation. That said, I don’t agree with gay marriage, but I am very much in favour of gay civil unions. The irony is that I have a lot of gay friends (I do theatre), and they agree with my stance. To take this a step further, I believe it is ludicrous that the govt. is involved at all in marriage. When the left condemns religion and yet pockets money from a religious rite (marriage), are they not showing true hypocisy? Yes, my Libertarian streak is showing….

  4. I like her as a person but we’re going to have to agree to disagree on the subjects of gay people and how homosexuality affects society. Kirk Cameron, on the other hand, I’d like to see disappear from the media entirely, as I tend to think of him as a complete assclown.

  5. moss_icon says:

    “You’re all ignorant and full of shit, every single last one of you.  And by “you” I mean people that push this bronze age bullshit and pretend they’re following god’s will when they’re really just hiding behind scripture to justify their own intolerance.  And then at the drop of a hat feign persecution.”Especially liked this paragraph. Sums them up nicely. I also enjoy how she addresses nothing of what you say, very intellectually honest of her.

  6. agnophilo says:

    @Kellsbella – “If a man also lies with a man, as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.” (Leviticus 20:13)How does the context change the meaning of this passage?  And of all these translations (or any others) how is the meaning changed?  You might find this relevant.@ZombieMom_Speaks – She’s a tweaked one is all I’ll say.  She’s blocked me twice, then written blogs praising me afterward.@moss_icon – I usually don’t like to be that rude about it, but nothing is inaccurate.

  7. moss_icon says:

    @agnophilo – Yeah, but people spreading a message of blatant ignorance and intolerance arouse ire. It’s the whole MO of the WBC. If we’re going to get pissy about something it may as well be something important, like this. In ref. to something else, I think I’m going to start using “you’re taking it out of context” as my ad-hoc, fallacious excuse for anything.

  8. Kellsbella says:

    Sheesh! That took forever. I need more memory on this computer….also I had to put my tuppence in at your link. Oh, now, we were talking about putting gays to death, right? Hmmm…Don’t you believe that J.C. kinda put a stop to all the interpretations of His Word…Yohanan 13: 34-35″A renewed command I give to you, that you love one another, as I have loved you, that you also love one another. By this shall all know that you are My taught ones, if you love one another.”

  9. galadrial says:

    Unfortunately, once you base ALL your beliefs on a single book, you’re bound to become a bigot. Worse…you’ll insist that any tolerance of any other mind set is an attempt to “attack” you and your way of life. They claim to love Jesus, and want to be more “like” him in every way—then forget who he was, and everything he said. It’s like they are pissed that they will have to die to find out if they were right—and want to PUNISH everyone now…just inc case they weren’t,Very sad.

  10. TheSutraDude says:

    “and that what he was saying wasn’t discrimination because he’s simply stating what he believes.” what the hell kind of a justification for discrimination is that? holy crap! i grew up years ago in a white suburb in which many of the parents and subsequently their children were racist. i suppose saying dumb [fill in the non-white blank] for no apparent reason other than to get a good chuckle wasn’t discrimination but simply stating what the person believes? what does she think discrimination is? let me say this. Kirk Cameron is a dumb POS and i openly admit it that statement is my discrimination…against dumb people. 

  11. i’ve just never understood the attitude of “i think homosexuality is destroying America, but i don’t hate gay people.”  

  12. @galadrial – Indeed. There’s just no way of really having an actual conversation. IT’S WHAT MY HOLY BOOK SAYS, PERIOD! IF IT SAYS I HAVE TO HATE ALL MY FAMILY THEN THAT’S WHAT I’LL DO! IF IT SAYS I HAVE TO DENY PEOPLE THEIR RIGHTS BECAUSE THEY’RE DIFFERENT, THEN THAT’S IT!!!  How’s that for fucked up? *rolls eyes* People like that have (implicitly or explicitly) agreed to shut off their brains, and do what they’re told, no questions asked. How fucking disgusting and sad.

  13. agnophilo says:

    @moss_icon – Heh : )@Kellsbella – “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” (Matityahu 5-17-20)So have heaven and earth passed away while I wasn’t looking?  And the commandment to love your brethren wasn’t new.@galadrial – Even thomas aquinas (aka “saint” thomas) said “beware the man of one book”.

  14. agnophilo says:

    @TheSutraDude – There’s a big movement in evangelism to misinform christians that hate-crime legislation “persecutes” christians for condemning homosexuality.  In reality it just adds harsher punishments for assaulting, killing or threatening to kill a gay person (or other minorities).@flapper_femme_fatale – Politically correct prejudice.@In_Reason_I_Trust – Unfortunately.

  15. TheSutraDude says:

    @agnophilo – yes of course. attack from where you’re weak is a popular strategy. “if we can’t discriminate against, beat, maim or kill people based on our effed up belief system our rights are being discriminated against and we’re being persecuted”. 

  16. TheSutraDude says:

    @agnophilo – quite frankly i believe Americans are being more than patient with far right evangelical hate mongers.  

  17. misuriver says:

    @galadrial – “It’s like they are pissed that they will have to die to find out if they were right—and want to PUNISH everyone now…just inc case they weren’t…” You’ve probably worded the description of their mindset the best.

  18. agnophilo says:

    @TheSutraDude – More than patient, I agree.  Especially since many are sympathetic with their views.

  19. Saridactyl says:

    I guess I shouldn’t have said anything about the animal kingdom.

  20. TheSutraDude says:

    @agnophilo – it’s too bad these people don’t get paid to think. they might actually put some effort into it. 

  21. Kellsbella says:

    @agnophilo – I think you missed my point; that being the word “renewed” commandment. I believe God gave us the ten commandments to love and respect others. There will always be people that skew their religion to fit what they believe. For example; Thou shalt not kill. Why then when God commands it, would we then kill a homosexual, much less persecute one? Am I making any sense?

  22. agnophilo says:

    @Saridactyl – Are you saying you’re an alt of the person I was talking to in this blog?@TheSutraDude – Someone wrote a book called work as soulcrafting or something, I never read it but the premise was that plumbers, electricians and people whose jobs include regular problem solving tend to be intelligent and insightful as a result.  People with these sorts of jobs in my experience tend to be pretty intelligent and philosophical.@Kellsbella – The sixth commandment prohibits murder, which is generally defined as the killing of an innocent person.  Capital punishment in most societies doesn’t apply.  And if all killing were murder then god would be the worst mass-murderer in history according to scripture.  The reality is that everyone skews their religion to fit what they want to believe, you’re doing it right now.  The difference is whether they go with the barbaric nonsense and try to ignore or rationalize it so they can follow the good bits, or whether they rationalize away calls to kindness, charity etc.  I do neither, I accept that scripture says many obviously good and evil things and openly reject the evil, barbaric bronze age nonsense and accept the good stuff (which is by no means unique to scripture). You say the ten commandments still apply?  The ones that say you can make your slaves work 6 days of the week and then they, like your other cattle, must have saturday off to recharge?  And the ones that “renew” the message that making a statue is one of the worst things you can do (moses had 3,000 people executed for it on god’s order in the book of exodus, one of two books the ten commandments are found in). 

  23. TheSutraDude says:

    @agnophilo – i agree with that notion. one cannot judge a person’s intelligence based on the person’s profession or resultant pay scale. Ralph Waldo Emerson believed genius is not tethered to “intellectual” pursuit. my understanding is he believed genius shone when a person brought forth their true expansive potential, be that in a job or in parenting or whatever. genius is not based on book knowledge. even before i worked for 8 years on wall street i hated that investment bankers were referred to as “masters of the universe”. for all their MBAs from Harvard Business and Wharton they weren’t the brightest bunch. had they been brighter they might have had a little foresight instead of beating the drums of the capitalist lemming. their starting salaries right out of college were higher than most make at the salary peaks of careers. there is something badly skewed in our society.  

  24. agnophilo says:

    @TheSutraDude – I agree about society.  And I agree with Winston Churchill, “True genius resides in the capacity for the evaluation of uncertain, hazardous and conflicting information.”

  25. Saridactyl says:

    @agnophilo – The comment you broke down on this blog was a response to what I said to her. 

  26. Kellsbella says:

    @agnophilo – Don’t you think that Jesus, being God the Son, sort of trumps earlier interpretations in the Bible made by prophets? They were just men. He is Divine. That said, I do believe that God gave us the gift of free will. Kinda like if you’re in the dark, God can give you a flashlight, but you as the individual can choose whether or not to take it. Whether it is in an individual’s soul to follow good or follow evil is granted to the individual no matter which religion they subscribe to.  Is my Christian ass makin any sense?P.S. – Can you post Loch Lomond “Wax and Wire” on your musical links. I don’t know how to do that… Here it is:

  27. agnophilo says:

    @Saridactyl – Ah, okay.  Thanks for clearing it up.

  28. agnophilo says:

    @Kellsbella – I was quoting jesus.  You are saying that jesus trumps jesus.  In reality you are saying what you believe trumps what scripture says.  You follow your own opinion, intuition, biases, culture etc, not scripture.

  29. agnophilo says:

    @Kellsbella – As for the song, there are plenty of songs I like that don’t make the cut because of the song limit, sorry.

  30. Kellsbella says:

    @agnophilo – Your comment was on the sixth commandment by God the Father. Because I believe in the Trinity, I suppose I can concede with your argument to a point. I feel like I am not making sense to you as you have continually denied to answer that question. It’s fine, though, as it seems my nature. Now, because you deny me my music, may I receive my tantric massage?

  31. TheSutraDude says:

    @agnophilo – i like the Churchill quote. here’s a quote attributed to Albert Einstein. i mentioned it on a blog somewhere only a couple of days ago so i hope i’m not being redundant: “The difference between genius and stupidity is genius has its limits”. haha. i love that quote.  

  32. agnophilo says:

    @Kellsbella – You’re an odd one.@TheSutraDude – Doesn’t sound like einstein, but it’s a good quote : )

  33. Kellsbella says:

    @TheSutraDude – Sorta like the Wise man knows he is a Fool?@agnophilo – It’s funny that you say that. I take care of a schizophrenic, and now the husband of a wife with Alzheimer’s  would like me to look after her as well. Reckon there must be something to being an odd Thomas. 

  34. agnophilo says:

    @Kellsbella – Is it your job or family?

  35. Kellsbella says:

    @agnophilo – My job. Then again, everyone thinks my family is kinda crazy……reckon they all are….Now I’m singin to your distracting music……School’s Out. I suppose it’s better than the last song that I heard about fucking me. It was extremely distracting….but I easily go off on tangents.

  36. Religious beliefs don’t give anyone the right to discriminate a minority. Sue the shit out of homophobic pastors & churches for preaching discrimination of gay people. These are verbal hate crimes. Make it costly. Shut ’em the fuck up.

  37. agnophilo says:

    @Kellsbella – Glad you’re not bogged down taking care of a mentally insane parent for nothing (or at your expense).@love4meislove4U – No they have a right to free speech.  And no, it isn’t a hate crime unless they’re actively inciting violence.  What they say is vile, but they should be allowed to say it (and we allowed to disagree) because the government should not be allowed to decide what speech isn’t allowed.  I am an atheist, if the government were allowed to censor people based on their beliefs in a nation with a 3/4 christian population which would be censored first?  My blog or something in the bible?

  38. Kellsbella says:

    @agnophilo – If you are taking care of a mentally insane parent, I feel it is a noble thing. I also feel that even though you’re an Atheist that you will be blessed for your compassion.

  39. @agnophilo –  I allow myself to disagree with you. Iif you’re right nothing is ever going to change. Posting blogs doesn’t change the world, it’s like spitting into the ocean, sorry. Caving in to numbers neither. There is always going to be more of them. It doesn’t give them the right. If there is a law against discrimination it includes verbal harassment, just take sexual harassment as example. It’s not legally acceptable for a man to make sexual remarks to a female colleague, or to make judgemental comments about someone’s ethnicity. It doesn’t give anyone the right to make racist comments publicly. But you say  “No they have a right to free speech.” I can see the smile on their faces behind your back. Go ahead fight for their rights, buddy. Let’s start by making sure all the haters have all the freedom in the world, right? And while we are busy making sure no one steps on their rights, they can spread their hate. Good strat, pal.

  40. agnophilo says:

    @Kellsbella – I took care of a disabled parent for years.  And I didn’t do it to get into heaven.  @love4meislove4U – There are separate rules that apply in the workplace.  And saying “homosexuality is bad” and harassing a gay person are two different things.  And as I said, if they can’t criticize gays then you can’t criticize them either.  The law treats everyone equally, or at least should.  You believe you should have freedoms you would deny others.  How does that make you any better than someone denying gay people the freedoms they enjoy?  Unlike anti-gay bigots I can disagree with or dislike them without wanting to make them second class citizens.

  41. Kellsbella says:

    @agnophilo – Still, you were following one of God’s commandments, and it is noble. Just out of curiosity, what was or is the affliction? You don’t have to tell me, of course. Every affliction is profound.

  42. agnophilo says:

    @Kellsbella – Chronic pain and difficulty walking, lifting etc mostly due to scoliosis and other things.  And I wasn’t following one of god’s commandments, love, compassion and morality pre-date the oldest scripture.  Even neanderthals cared for their sick and disabled.

  43. Kellsbella says:

    @agnophilo – I’ve read of ancient nomadic cultures who would simply abandon the sick, disabled or elderly. I think you’re just too humble and don’t want that pat on the back, do you, pal Joey? The irony is that that in itself is a virtue

  44. agnophilo says:

    @Kellsbella – I think that’s more due to the “nomadic” part than the ancient part.  Nomadic cultures are so because they live off of different food sources at different times of year and have to move or they will all die.  They simply didn’t have the capacity to deal with someone who was immobile.  And I’m not saying I’m not virtuous, I try to be.  I’m saying that my virtue did not originate with the bible or the doctrine of any religion.  You can’t give something someone wrote about jesus the credit for every act of kindness in the world as though everyone’s doctrine is the bible, or as though kindness didn’t exist prior to 2,000 years ago.  Buddha, socrates, lao tsu, confucius and many other stated the golden rule around half a millenia before jesus did.

  45. @agnophilo –  “You believe you should have freedoms you would deny others.” I don’t ask for any more freedom of speech than anybody else, do I? I don’t demand the right to say “christians are responsible for the falling down of western civilization” etc. I just wan them to stop blaming gay people. That’s all. Read what I write for fucks sake!!!!”How does that make you any better than someone denying gay people the freedoms they enjoy?” When did I claim to be any better than anybody else? I never did. For fucks sake!!!!!I’m so fucking tired of people putting words in my mouth. If you can’t read don’t reply either.

  46. agnophilo says:

    @love4meislove4U – You think freedom of speech means the freedom to express views you agree with.  That isn’t freedom at all.  You can say whatever you like so long as what you are saying is not meant to incite an illegal act and if what you are saying is repugnant I am free to say as much.  That is freedom of speech.

Speak yer mind.

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