Anti-Gay Argument.

Someone posted a blog claiming to be bullied and unfairly called a bigot simply for being anti-gay…  He said he wasn’t against equal rights and he gets along fine with gay co-workers, he just is opposed to homosexuality and he’s treated so unfairly for it… 

He then went on to clarify in the comment section that he’s against legalizing gay marriage and opposes the rights of gays to adopt children and basically thinks gay people are mentally ill and a blight on society.  Here is one of my responses (in-line):

(To someone else who said homosexuality is a sin) Not marrying your rapist is also a sin, punishable by death too (just like homosexuality).

I’m so sick of christians selectively enforcing barbaric ideas from bronze age texts they can’t even be bothered to read.  “It’s good because the bible says so!”  Yeah so is slavery and capital punishment for children.  “Homosexuality is an abomination, it says so in the bible!”  So is eating shellfish and trimming your beard.

(To the guy mentioned above)

“However, evidence has shown that
homosexuality cannot naturally provide all that one’s spouse needs,”

I don’t think you understand what being gay means.  It means you’re not attracted to members of the opposite sex at all.  If you’re gay a heterosexual relationship by definition wouldn’t fulfill your needs.  I’m guessing you like dudes and tell yourself you’re not gay, that homosexuality is just “giving in” to the urges everyone has.  Am I right?  That seems to be the case usually when people can’t acknowledge that gay people even exist.

“nor
does it provide the complete environment that children need.”

I didn’t know a child needed a specific configuration of genitalia to be raised properly.  And by your logic single parents should have their kids taken away because one parent doesn’t provide the “complete environment” they need.  I’m sure for the vast majority of kids that never get adopted it’s comforting to know that at least in an orphanage they won’t be around any fags to nurture and support and love them.

“But homosexuality is an ACTION that acts like a
flood gate for problems”

No, sticking a dick up someone’s ass is an action (one straight people engage in much more frequently than gay people by the way).

“- including STDs”

Lesbians have lower rates of STD transmission than straight couples.  So I guess that’s an argument that women should all go lesbian right?

“and psychological issues (such
as increased proclivity towards suicide).”

You know I think that might have more to do with people like you treating them like lepers their whole lives and their peers viewing their mere existence as evil and wrong.

“Homosexuality is also a
barrier to the complimentary nature that each gender offers one another
as found in a heterosexual relationship. These are inherent
characteristics found in homosexual relationships.”

Do you get that being gay isn’t an option?  I’m guessing you don’t.  You can live a heterosexual life if you’re a) bi, or b) are gay and want to go through the motions and pretend you’re straight.  But a gay person can no more make themselves straight than I can make myself be gay, or make myself fall in love with a doorknob.  These are hard-wired, unconscious, automatic responses that we’re born with, we can no more get rid of them than we can get rid of pain.

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About agnophilo

Nerd.
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41 Responses to Anti-Gay Argument.

  1. heckels says:

    way to go, we need more people like you on our side. I’ve always said that one’s sexual orientation is not defined by who they fuck, but instead by who they are attracted to. Shit, society is filled with “straight people” who are married yet are secretly gay (see ted haggard, larry craig, mark foley, shit the list goes on and on, and many of them are republican). I love how bigots always try to show their racial/homosexual/minority resume to show they are friendly to the very people they are bigoted against. “oh, I have lots of black friends but I still don’t think they should have the right to vote.” or “oh, I’m not anti gay at all, I work with gay people so it is okay for me to believe they should have fewer rights than me.’

  2. I dunno, I’ve seen some pretty attractive doorknobs…

  3. moss_icon says:

    “and psychological issues (such as increased proclivity towards suicide).” You know I think that might have more to do with people like you treating them like lepers their whole lives and their peers viewing their mere existence as evil and wrong. – Fucking BULLSEYE! It doesn’t take a goddamn genius to see how obvious it is that constant bigotry is gonna lead to depression and, in severe cases, suicide. Thanks for writing this. I just saw that steaming turd of an entry written by Rhi – or should I not name names? – and I’m afraid that as much as I’d like to rebut I’m just way too volatile and emotional a person. I always, no matter how hard I try to detach myself and stay calm, get pissed off by these BIGOTS (yes, you are BIGOTS. Anyone who harbours an irrational prejudice against another group is a bigot, no matter how you behave openly towards them) to the extent that I am left depressed over the state of humanity. I’m glad people like you can stay cool-headed enough to provide the counter-arguments. 

  4. leaflesstree says:

    Yeah I saw that blog, it was so incredibly stupid I didn’t feel any urge to comment. The writer seemed completely clueless as to how his attitude might possibly offend anyone despite various attempts to explain it by intelligent commenters. Sad to think there are morons like him in the world.

  5. agnophilo says:

    @heckels – Yeah, gay republicans/christians pretty much inevitably were militantly anti-gay before they were outed.  I wonder how many anti-gay congressmen secretly fantasize about fucking dudes.  Statistically 10% of them are probably gay and more are probably bi.  I wouldn’t be surprised if they made up virtually 100% of the anti-gay wing of our politicians.@GodlessLiberal – Heh : P@moss_icon – I don’t always.  But yeah, on the bright side things are getting better.  On the downside social progress seems to move at glacial speeds.@leaflesstree – I honestly think he’s just a) too chickenshit to honestly ask himself if he’s a little gay, or b) is reeeeeeally gay and is taking an anti-gay stance to compensate for the feelings of shame and fear he feels, or to avoid people thinking he’s gay.  Why else would someone claim being gay is an “action”, not an orientation, unless their internal logic was “being gay is fucking guys, not wanting to fuck guys, so I’m not gay”.I would actually have a lot of compassion for people like this if they found a way to be neurotic without being toxic to the rest of society.

  6. agnophilo says:

    @moss_icon – Oh, and also there’s a tendency toward things like suicidal behavior in gay people even where they’re not persecuted (at least not as badly, they’re still going to be bullied because kids are cruel and bully anyone who’s different) because there’s also a correlation between homosexuality and child sexual abuse.  Not nearly all gay people are abused as a child, but if a girl was raped for 5 years by her uncle I could see her not being able to be with a man and coping by being with women, even if that might not have been her natural proclivity.  But in those instances the depression obviously stems from the abuse, not the “gayness”, so by his logic we shouldn’t let people who were abused as a child adopt.  But I didn’t think his comment really warranted that deep a response.

  7. moss_icon says:

    @agnophilo – Well, you stay cooler than I seem able to. It really is frustrating; I want to argue and engage these people but it consumes me when I do. ‘Specially when they’re professional trolls like Curtis. I know that’s what they want; to piss people off so they lose their temper, then they can bray on about how “hateful” Liberals are. He’s the Online Westboro Baptist Church. Even avoiding direct discrimination, gays are still born into an environment of homophobia which takes its toll on the psyche, even if it’s all just stuff you hear. Something like 96% of school kids hear “gay” used to mean something is in someway crap, lame, defective, or whatever. Even if you’ve met nothing but love and acceptance from those around you it’s impossible to ignore the vile bigotry of the world. It undermines your very existence. But yeah, regarding your point I feel sexuality is largely fluid and, whilst most people have preferences, highly distressing events during formative years can push the bar to the other side, against their natural alignment.

  8. I understand wanting to not give authors of bad entries free publicity, but reply-entires like these would be much more alive if we had a screenshot or a backlink to the original entry. Your entry worked well for me because I have a pretty clear recollection of the dude’s write-up and the unctuous shfitiness of his defenses in the comments of his blog.A l lot of times, also, readers like me also want to give critiqued bloggers a fair shake by judging comments or entries in their entirity in the context they’ve provided them.

  9. NeverSubmit says:

    “Homosexuality is also a barrier to the complimentary nature that each gender offers one another as found in a heterosexual relationship. These are inherent characteristics found in homosexual relationships.”Here we have the crux of the argument.  In a gay relationship, you can’t have men dominating women.  The concept of men’s work versus women’s work is irrelevant.  This is the real ontological horror: can sexual tyranny withstand another blow?

  10. EXACTLY!!! Great post Mark.

  11. It is maddening that that little punk proudly wants to deny some people rights he himself takes for granted then has the balls to say “Show me in my own words where I have been rude and offensive to gays”.

  12. Thanks for writing this! I am surprised Paige isn’t over here spouting out her misspelled illiterate “wisdom”.

  13. Was this in response to Paige’s post? You should link the post. 

  14. mommachatter says:

    I am 64 years old. My parents generation had clear divisions about everything, black/white, unwed mothers, unwed couples living together, even divorce was a hushed word…excetera, excetera.  And homosexuality was mentioned only in whispers in school shower rooms.  There is a part of me that can’t shake that but my son was the one that showed me the light…He said, “Homosexuality is not just about sex.”  And I looked around me and found it “so”.

  15. zzzz_angel says:

    I’ve been Catholic all my life (except when I was in 7th and 8th grade I was buying into theory of evolution) and Ibefore I’ve always been wondering the church’s stance on homosexuality. I was looking through the list of sins (everything we do is a sin but it was pointing out the heavy things) and it said, homosexuality ACTS. I didn’t really think about it so much before. I’ve been like, “well bashing gay people is a sin, too.” Few weeks ago I went to this retreat and it cleared up my confusion about it. One of the speakers is a lesbian. and she said that the world had taken the truth and distorted it. being attracted to the same sex is not a sin. but if you act on it (even just being in a relationship with the same gender), then it is. she compared it to how a straight person could want premarital sex but if s/he acts on it then it becomes a sin. she said that she was in a serious relationship with another woman and decided to break it off saying that “I’d rather see you in Heaven rather than love you here on Earth.” another guy explain it to why to act on it is a sin. he said that since people are reflection of God, and He creates life, we should do the same. And same-gender sex doesn’t. Anyway, I believe that God made everyone, so everybody deserves to be respected. 

  16. firetyger says:

    I disagree with the guy from that post in keeping gays from adopting and keeping them from being viewed equally under the law the way heterosexual couples are.However, I still believe homosexual acts to be a sin. I don’t know why you would have a problem with my view when it does not infringe on the rights of anyone else.

  17. plursheep says:

    @firetyger – Its not that people have a problem with it, its the fact that people like you (no offense) are trying to run everyone else.  In my religion, the only “sin” is doing something you wouldn’t want done to you.  In the case of homosexuals…well once upon a time my marriage was illegal too and I would have had to fight to be with my husband.  So we have blocked marriage for homosexuals because it is a sin to Christian based believers.  Thats not fair to the Wiccan gay couple in their 90s…where the gay hating family will take all one’s stuff when he dies leaving the significant other nothing.  

  18. plursheep says:

    @f5ye_angel5 – To a creationist, yes God did make gays.  One of my best buds believes God makes everyone the way they are, including serial killers, as part of his big plan.  I wish more people could believe that.  God apparently made other animals homosexuals as well and some have no choice but to be homosexuals (due to them only producing one gender or being asexual.)  Some can even change gender.  According to her, it is confusing but it isn’t supposed to make sense to us.

  19. agnophilo says:

    @moss_icon – “Well, you stay cooler than I seem able to. It really is frustrating; I want to argue and engage these people but it consumes me when I do. ‘Specially when they’re professional trolls like Curtis. I know that’s what they want; to piss people off so they lose their temper, then they can bray on about how “hateful” Liberals are. He’s the Online Westboro Baptist Church.”Loborn has xanga premium and puts ads on his multiple sites to make money.  Honestly it’s better to just ignore him.”Even avoiding direct discrimination, gays are still born into an environment of homophobia which takes its toll on the psyche, even if it’s all just stuff you hear. Something like 96% of school kids hear “gay” used to mean something is in someway crap, lame, defective, or whatever. Even if you’ve met nothing but love and acceptance from those around you it’s impossible to ignore the vile bigotry of the world. It undermines your very existence.”I do think that’s changing though, I think the word gay is like the word retard, it’s not really used to mean what it literally means anymore.  But I agree if you’re gay it probably stings anyway.”But yeah, regarding your point I feel sexuality is largely fluid and, whilst most people have preferences, highly distressing events during formative years can push the bar to the other side, against their natural alignment.” I think it’s the same with sociopaths.  Not to in any way equate gays and sociopaths, but I think people can be born sociopaths and just lack empathy the same way someone can be born without arms, and I think people can become sociopathic due to certain types of abuse.  The difference of course is that being gay doesn’t hurt anyone.  If being a sociopath didn’t hurt anyone I’d have no problem with that either.@Celestial_Teapot – Anyone who knows how to use google can easily find the original blog, and it’s not so much not wanting to give crappy blogs free publicity (though there’s an element of that), I also don’t want to routinely send an army of people to harass people, even if their views are repugnant.  I can see no good that can come from that and it’s kind of dickish.  As far as giving the other person a fair shake and seeing the context that’s an excellent point and I’ve had people lie about me on their blogs so I appreciate it.  But in this case I did give the entire context, he never responded to me, lol.  Or if he did I haven’t gotten to it in my feed so far.

  20. agnophilo says:

    @NeverSubmit – “Here we have the crux of the argument.  In a gay relationship, you can’t have men dominating women.  The concept of men’s work versus women’s work is irrelevant.  This is the real ontological horror: can sexual tyranny withstand another blow?”I didn’t get that from what he said at all.  I think he was more just saying “a penis fits in a vagina”, which is the usual lame argument religious anti-gay people always give.  The naturalistic fallacy.@Kristenmomof3 – Thanks.@tendollar4ways – He said he wasn’t against equal rights for gays, then said he doesn’t think they should have any of the rights they don’t have (and he does).  This makes me wonder if he thinks at all before he blogs.@LadyboyRevolution – @brown_buffalo – Did paige post something similar?  No, it was in response to another blog.  And mtngirlsouth apparently blocked me again, god knows why.@mommachatter – Ironically whispering in a high school shower room seems kind of gay : P  I kid.  But yeah, if you’re hurting someone it’s a moral issue, everything else is just taste and preference.  If it makes you sick to think about gay people doing the nasty, a simple solution is to not have gay sex, lol.  Just like if a certain food grosses you out, don’t eat it.  But banning foods because you don’t like them is just silly.  As is being the sex police.  And as you said, it’s not just about sex.  Denying someone the chance to make love or fall in love or have a family, which are among the core things that give life meaning is, to me, unbelievably cruel.@f5ye_angel5 – “I’ve been Catholic all my life (except when I was in 7th and 8th grade I was buying into theory of evolution)” How does accepting the theory of evolution make you not catholic?  And do you reject it now?”and Ibefore I’ve always been wondering the church’s stance on homosexuality. I was looking through the list of sins (everything we do is a sin but it was pointing out the heavy things) and it said, homosexuality ACTS. I didn’t really think about it so much before. I’ve been like, “well bashing gay people is a sin, too.” Actually not rounding them up and killing them is a sin.  Want me to quote the scripture that says so?  Or the scripture that says (as I mentioned in the blog) that a woman should be executed for not marrying her rapist?  Or any of a hundred insane things we don’t even think about following, while singling out one or two passages as ironclad.”Few weeks ago I went to this retreat and it cleared up my confusion about it. One of the speakers is a lesbian. and she said that the world had taken the truth and distorted it. being attracted to the same sex is not a sin. but if you act on it (even just being in a relationship with the same gender), then it is.” No, it’s not.  Have you ever made love?  That someone could call that evil is just insane.”she compared it to how a straight person could want premarital sex but if s/he acts on it then it becomes a sin.” Also not a sin.  The prohibitions against premarital sex were put in place before safe sex existed, they were there to prevent people from getting women pregnant and creating life before any kind of commitment was in place.  Society stopped caring about the “sin” of premarital sex for the same reason it abandoned the practice of prepubescent arranged marriages.”she said that she was in a serious relationship with another woman and decided to break it off saying that “I’d rather see you in Heaven rather than love you here on Earth.”There is no hell, the word translated as hell in the old testament is sheol, it means grave or pit.  This is consistent with what the old testament teaches, the wages of sin are death.  Not eternal torment.  The bible makes no sense if you accept the doctrine of hell.  In the old testament the worst that could happen is you die and don’t enjoy the afterlife.  Then jesus comes to “save” us and now we’re all going to burn in hell forever.  If there is a hell then jesus damned us rather than “saved” us.  Furthermore if god torments people infinitely for finite crimes he is by definition infinitely unjust and evil.  And you think god is going to burn people alive forever for loving each other?  If you think that, why on earth would you want to be christian?  The monster most people seem to think the god of the bible is supposed to be makes the devil look like a sweetheart.”another guy explain it to why to act on it is a sin. he said that since people are reflection of God, and He creates life, we should do the same. And same-gender sex doesn’t.”So it’s a sin for sterile men and infertile women to have sex?  And they’re all going to burn in hell for making love?  I guess they shouldn’t even get married.  Should we pass a law barring sterile men and infertile women from marrying anyone?”Anyway, I believe that God made everyone, so everybody deserves to be respected.”I believe everyone deserves to be treated with consideration because they can suffer and feel injustice, whether they were created by god, aliens or the tooth fairy.  And the same goes for animals.

  21. agnophilo says:

    @firetyger – That’s like saying why would anyone have a problem with racism if you personally aren’t trying to assault anyone or infringe on their rights.  It’s not as though one doesn’t contribute to the other.  And why is it a sin?  Did you read the first comment in the blog?

  22. firetyger says:

    @agnophilo – It’s not the same as racism. Racism is about hating someone for their skin tone. Viewing homosexual acts as sin doesn’t mean I hate homosexuals. Big difference. And yes, I read your comment over on the other site.

  23. agnophilo says:

    @firetyger – You didn’t answer my question – why is it a sin?  And prejudice is prejudice.  Have you ever in your life condemned straight people for having anal sex (since I assume that is the act you are referring to)?

  24. moss_icon says:

    @agnophilo – So far I’ve ignored Curtis completely. To be honest I’m barely on xanga these days anyway but I resolved never to give him traffic, never to get dragged into one of his degenerate attempts at intellectual entrapment. To be honest his ability to troll would impress me if he were a teenager; there’s a certain sick, amoral artistry to it. But for a middle aged man… it’s deeply pathetic. I get your point. But it’s interesting you mention “retard” cos I honestly think there’s a major difference there. “Retard,” if you detach it from its pejorative usage towards the disabled/mentally handicapped, is still appropriate because it has always meant “regressive, under-performing, poor, etc”. If I say a movie is “retarded” that assessment is still relevant even if we remove the use of the word as a personal insult. “Gay,” on the other hand, is only appropriate as a disparaging term in a homophobic context. If I say a movie is “gay” I mean what? That it was happy and breezy and cheery, or that perhaps this action movie would sooner go snuggle with Die Hard than The Notebook? Whilst many people who do use it pejoratively may not be homophobic or bigoted, the use of the term is. Without the inherent bigotry of using “gay” as an insult it becomes senseless. “Retard(ed)” however does not. And the repeated use of “gay” to disparage (even if there’s intention to relate it to actual homosexuality) just propagates discriminatory attitudes. If you’re a young kid, wondering about your sexuality but hearing every day that this or that that sucks is “gay,” it’s not gonna make your self-acceptance any easier. @firetyger – No, racism is about viewing someone as inferior and not deserving of the same rights and opportunities as everyone else cos of their skin tone. Hate is often part of the parcel but Racism with a capital R – the philosophical position – does not need to involve hate. It’s simply discriminating against a person based on the difference they possess. You discriminate against homosexuals because their sexuality is different to what you consider “the norm.” You may not be hateful about it, you may not actively try to deny them rights, but so long as you judge them as doing something wrong then you are bigoted. Bigotry is prejudice. Prejudice requires objective justification to be considered reasonable (ie: I’m prejudiced against murderers cos they kill people and that huts and affects others against their will and freedoms.) There is no objective justification for considering homosexuality ‘sinful’ or wrong, only subjective positions based largely in religion and/or poor reasoning, which are usually merely attempts to validate a preconceived prejudice anyway. I appreciate you are not one of these hate-spouting, overt, aggressive bigots. But your position on homosexuality is by definition one of bigotry. To paraphrase CS Lewis, ironically enough, “it’s better to just think bigotedly than to be it. But it’s better still to do neither.”

  25. agnophilo says:

    @moss_icon – In a linguistic sense, bad means good now.  I don’t know that it’s a deliberate attempt to persecute gay people so much as the ebb and flow of language.  But as I said I can see how it can be hurtful.

  26. zzzz_angel says:

    @agnophilo – whoa that was long. sorry i can’t read all of it now. but i’m gonna reply to second the last. there have been women in the bible who have been barren and yet they still got pregnant. 

  27. agnophilo says:

    @f5ye_angel5 – That doesn’t happen in the real world, the one we live in.  There were also women who never had sex and got pregnant and people walking on water.  It’s a work of fiction.

  28. zzzz_angel says:

    @agnophilo – just because society thinks it’s okay and more people think it’s okay, it doesn’t make it right. but yeah, you’re right, everything we do is a sin. But God knows that people are trying. even if one turns away from Him a million times but comes back even to the last minute of his/her life, He’d still accept him/her. 

  29. agnophilo says:

    @f5ye_angel5 – First of all I’m sorry for being dismissive in my other comment, you caught me on a bad day.  I’m not usually a “your religion is BS” kind of person.  Second, it’s not okay because society thinks it’s okay, it’s okay because it makes people happy and harms no one.  If you wanted to wear nothing but bright orange clothes everyone would think you were a weirdo, but if somebody wanted to justify stopping you, they’d have to give a better reason than not liking it, wouldn’t they?  Gay people are denied over a thousand legal rights straight people have every day.  They want to be able to be buried next to their spouse, inherit their property when they die, have their insurance carried, be able to visit them on their deathbed without the family being able to block them (because the family decides who can see them, and if your marriage isn’t legally binding you’re not family).  You’re talking about what’s right, do you think it’s right for someone to not be able to see their husband or wife on their deathbed because their family thinks the way you do about them?You’re literally saying 1 in 10 americans should be a second class citizen.  And why?  Because it says they’re an abomination in a 2,500 year old book that also calls trimming a man’s beard an abomination and calls for gay men to be put to death.  Should we round them up and kill them all?  We either have to follow leviticus or we don’t.And bear in mind jesus never once mentioned homosexuality (or abortion, the two issues “christ”ians seem to care about above all else).

  30. zzzz_angel says:

    @agnophilo – people have taken the bible and distorted it to justify whatever they’re doing wrong so i understand how people can think religion is bs. 

  31. agnophilo says:

    @f5ye_angel5 – So you’re saying the bible doesn’t say to kill gay men, that that is a distortion?

  32. moss_icon says:

    @agnophilo – I’m sure it’s deliberate in some cases and not in many. I have a couple of friends who do it but are completely on board with gay rights and so on. I think it would matter less if gay rights were still not such an uphill battle. If prejudice were no longer so common, or if “gay” ceased to be used toward homosexuals, it might get to the stage where no one thinks of the association (much like a great amount of people don’t consider “bastard’s” origins now. It’s just an insult.) I just feel that whilst homosexuals are still fighting for basic rights and are still widely persecuted, casually using “gay” as a slur, whatever your intent, is a douche thing to do.

  33. agnophilo says:

    @moss_icon – Can’t find anything wrong with that.

  34. agnophilo says:

    @moss_icon – By which I mean what you said, not using gay as an insult.

  35. zzzz_angel says:

    @agnophilo – we christians are suppose to respect everybody regardless of their sins, cuz we’re all sinners. 

  36. agnophilo says:

    @f5ye_angel5 – Denying people over a thousand legal rights that you have is respecting them?

  37. zzzz_angel says:

    @agnophilo – Sorry for not fully replying. Let me start in the beginning. “How does accepting the theory of evolution make you not catholic?  And do you reject it now?”I wasn’t really clear. In 7th grade, when I was learning about evolution, I was believing the theory that we came from a single cell and logic. I wasn’t believing in God. “that a woman should be executed for not marrying her rapist?  Or any of a hundred insane things we don’t even think about following, while singling out one or two passages as ironclad” I don’t know if you think this is relevant, but the Catholic church (at least it’s in the Philippines, idk about somewhere else), they allow divorce for people who have abusive spouses. Yeah, everything we do is a sin. even white lies, not as serious as cheating on your spouse though, but we still have to confess them. ” Society stopped caring about the “sin” of premarital sex for the same reason it abandoned the practice of prepubescent arranged marriages.”This is what I was specifically referring when I said just because society thinks it’s okay and more people think it’s okay doesn’t mean it’s right. just because it’s popular doesn’t mean it’s right. but it goes for all the other sins, too.” If there is a hell then jesus damned us rather than “saved” us.  Furthermore if god torments people infinitely for finite crimes he is by definition infinitely unjust and evil.”actually, Heaven was closed off to people until Jesus came. I know I said it before but I’ll say it again because it fits, He knows that we are trying. But if you don’t believe in hell then we’ll just have to agree to disagree”So it’s a sin for sterile men and infertile women to have sex? “i’ll repeat this again so I don’t feel like i left it out, old women in the bible gets pregnant and their children have special missions. sodomy and masturbation is a sin even for straight people. Again, if you think bible is fiction then we’ll just have to agree to disagree. “it’s okay because it makes people happy and harms no one. ” i’ll quote  the article that my former english teacher gave us.  it’s from http://www.usatoday.com/news/opinion/forum/2011-08-14-millennials-religion-catholic_n.htm just so you don’t think i’m making it up. “Sometime in the past century, a new creed emerged, saying everyone should make his own creed. This tolerant, open-minded ethos seemed to promise freedom: safe sex with many partners, drugs and alcohol galore and quick, no-fault divorce. So our Baby Boomer parents partied hard, yet in so many cases left us only the hangover: heartbreak, addiction and broken homes, plus rising rates of teenage depression and suicide.The anything-goes religion of the late 20th century cannot prevent nor even explain these consequences. (After all, if I’m OK, you’re OK, and we can do whatever we want, why are so many people unhappy?) When every member of a society does whatever makes him feel good, the inevitable results are not personal fulfillment and communal harmony but selfishness and social breakdown.“just to be clear though, i’m not blaming the baby boomers for all of our current problems. after all they allowed ethnic diversity to happen. “Denying people over a thousand legal rights that you have is respecting them?”if that’s how you interpret me not supporting gay marriage then i can’t change that. i’m sorry if I have offended you in anyway. and for replying late. 

  38. agnophilo says:

    @f5ye_angel5 – “Sorry for not fully replying. Let me start in the beginning.”Okay.[“How does accepting the theory of evolution make you not catholic?  And do you reject it now?”]”I wasn’t really clear. In 7th grade, when I was learning about evolution, I was believing the theory that we came from a single cell and logic. I wasn’t believing in God.” That doesn’t answer either of my questions.  It can be interpreted as vaguely clarifying the first, but that’s about it.[“that a woman should be executed for not marrying her rapist?  Or any of a hundred insane things we don’t even think about following, while singling out one or two passages as ironclad”]”I don’t know if you think this is relevant, but the Catholic church (at least it’s in the Philippines, idk about somewhere else), they allow divorce for people who have abusive spouses.” The point I was making was that to enforce scripture on minorities while ignoring it when it suits you is hypocritical.  How does the church doing the same thing invalidate that point?”Yeah, everything we do is a sin. even white lies, not as serious as cheating on your spouse though, but we still have to confess them.”Where in the bible does it say to confess your sins to a priest or give money to a church or even attend mass?  And if something is supposedly a “sin” that no harm comes from are you going to not do it?  In other words if the catholic church said tomorrow that stepping on a crack on the sidewalk was a sin against god would you go out of your way not to step on cracks?  Or would you stop and question whether the rule made any sense first?”This is what I was specifically referring when I said just because society thinks it’s okay and more people think it’s okay doesn’t mean it’s right. just because it’s popular doesn’t mean it’s right. but it goes for all the other sins, too.”I was saying that society abandoned the ethic because it was wrong, not that society abandoned it therefore it’s wrong.  I don’t think morality is determined by majority vote.  But scripture literally was determined that way.  A council in the roman government (and various governments after that) literally voted on what was “real” scripture and what was not, and books were added to and removed from the bible over the years.  The 1611 king james bible had 81 books, not 66.  So yes, I agree.  Society agreeing with something doesn’t make it right.  Including when society (or the government or powerful church leaders) agrees on what is supposedly god’s will.”actually, Heaven was closed off to people until Jesus came.” One, that has nothing to do with my point which was about hell.  And two, scripture promised an afterlife long before jesus showed up, so what is your point?”I know I said it before but I’ll say it again because it fits, He knows that we are trying. But if you don’t believe in hell then we’ll just have to agree to disagree”I was assuming for the sake of argument that hell existed.  Answer me this – what crime can I commit that would warrant infinite punishment?[“So it’s a sin for sterile men and infertile women to have sex?”]”i’ll repeat this again so I don’t feel like i left it out, old women in the bible gets pregnant and their children have special missions. sodomy and masturbation is a sin even for straight people. Again, if you think bible is fiction then we’ll just have to agree to disagree.” No, you’re just being closed-minded and unreasonable.  You said that gay sex is evil because it can’t produce offspring, so I asked if straight sex that can’t produce offspring is evil (which shows the flaw in your logic and that you have one standard for straight people and another for gays) so you just blew off the question because you didn’t like the answer.”i’ll quote  the article that my former english teacher gave us.  it’s from http://www.usatoday.com/news/opinion/forum/2011-08-14-millennials-religion-catholic_n.htm just so you don’t think i’m making it up. “Sometime in the past century, a new creed emerged, saying everyone should make his own creed. This tolerant, open-minded ethos seemed to promise freedom: safe sex with many partners, drugs and alcohol galore and quick, no-fault divorce. So our Baby Boomer parents partied hard, yet in so many cases left us only the hangover: heartbreak, addiction and broken homes, plus rising rates of teenage depression and suicide.The anything-goes religion of the late 20th century cannot prevent nor even explain these consequences. (After all, if I’m OK, you’re OK, and we can do whatever we want, why are so many people unhappy?) When every member of a society does whatever makes him feel good, the inevitable results are not personal fulfillment and communal harmony but selfishness and social breakdown.“First of all, drug abuse, alcoholism, suicide, depression etc were not invented by the baby boomers and have existed throughout history.  Second of all, I’m an atheist and a free thinker with my own views on everything and I’ve never done drugs or drank a drop of alcohol or gotten anyone pregnant.  I think that that kind of partying is stupid and destructive.  And while yes there was a trend of teen suicide and other things rising since the 50’s it a) then started to reverse despite the trends you blame the rise on not reversing), and b) countless things have changed in society since the 50’s from the invention of television to the end of the great depression.  To pick one thing and arbitrarily decide it’s to blame for something bad in society with no logic isn’t honest.  Did you know your chance of being murdered or killed in a war has been steadily declining for centuries and is the lowest it’s ever been?  For most of history people expected to lose a third to half of their children to disease, now they don’t.  If you’re going to randomly blame people being less like you for everything bad in society then why not say that caused all the amazing improvements in society too?”just to be clear though, i’m not blaming the baby boomers for all of our current problems. after all they allowed ethnic diversity to happen. “No, just played a part in the civil rights movement.[“Denying people over a thousand legal rights that you have is respecting them?”]”if that’s how you interpret me not supporting gay marriage then i can’t change that. i’m sorry if I have offended you in anyway. and for replying late.” “No that’s what you’re doing in reality.  It’s a fact that they are denied over a thousand legal rights that you have, not my opinion.  Didn’t they teach you the difference between facts and opinions in school?  Thank you for the apology but it’s hard to appreciate it when you consistently blow off every point I make and ignore every question I ask.

  39. zzzz_angel says:

    @agnophilo – not argue. i can’t explain myself clearly 

  40. agnophilo says:

    @f5ye_angel5 – It’s not that you can’t defend your position, it’s that your position (denying minorities equal rights because of hypocritical moral rules which don’t make sense) isn’t defensible.  I’ve never met a person yet that could defend it.

Speak yer mind.

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