Please Read If You’re Conservative (Or Liberal Too, Actually).

Just left this comment on an anti-obama, anti-“collectivism” blog, thought it worth sharing:

I don’t think the post office not being PostalCo is what’s destroying america.  I think it’s the people with the money and the power that can actually do major damage writing the laws that govern themselves.  I think it’s the culture of screwing ourselves over in the long run for short-term, immediate benefits (political and financial).  In fact when I think of all the things that are really screwing the country over, obama’s name doesn’t even come up.

Obama isn’t some mad marxist ideologue bent on making us a communist country – that’s the BS caricature the conservative media made up.  In reality he’s a very moderate president.  Conservatives use the specter of communism to justify pushing the country further and further toward the opposite extreme of becoming the united states of walmart where everything is owned by a handful of companies, everything is brand name, nothing is local, and there is no such thing as an american entrepreneur anymore, the only way to get ahead is to work for a big company.

We went in about 2 years from every gas station in my home town being owned and operated by just some dude with a gas station to every gas station being run by someone working at minimum wage making money for some oil billionaire prick who half of the time doesn’t even live in this country.  They just muscled out everyone like a big corporate tidal wave crashing over the whole damn country.  We’re fast moving toward a country where the only bit of prosperity anyone will be able to carve out for themselves and have control over is in some tiny little niche that isn’t big enough for any company to bother taking over.

Conservatives are so worried about government tyranny when corporate tyranny is just as fucked up and has the entire country by the balls.

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About agnophilo

Nerd.
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61 Responses to Please Read If You’re Conservative (Or Liberal Too, Actually).

  1. @tjordanm – ” I personally believe it is rationally possible to determine standards.”agreed.  but what we’re debating is whose standards should win.  mine or yours? ” If you actually believe that, and agree that all you have to say is inconsequential dogmatic trash, then stop tell people your opinions and STFU.”the idea that the only things worth discussing are undeniable facts can result in two things: bigots and fundamentalists who take their opinions and try to present them as fact, or a complete vacuum of debate on serious subjects.  

  2. tjordanm says:

    @flapper_femme_fatale – Debating whose standards should win? WIN? By what standard? How would that be determined? And it isnt bigotry or fundamentalism that I am promoting here, just logical behavior. IF your comments are unfounded by your own standards, then asking you to forever STFU is valid. If you think you know better than I, if you think you understand history, philosophy, epistemology, ethics, and political philosophy better than I (you don’t) then you’ll need to give reasons why. And if you do, then obviously that comment about being a moral relativist is horse shit. I know you aren’t a moral relativist. If you were you would understand that the least useful thing is rational dialog. No. The most useful thing for a relativist is a gun.I personally believe humans can co-exist peacefully without causing each other harm in any way. I only believe that because I know things are NOT relative.

  3. agnophilo says:

    @tjordanm – “It isn’t JUST bribery, it is any time one person has the force of a government to back up his desires; he has the power to encourage or discourage any economic activity, and from that he can derive all kinds of benefits. Not just bribery. I’m not saying get rid of government, just destroy its power to regulate the economy.”Discourage economic activity?  I don’t even know what you’re talking about.  And the financial sector being regulated no more discourages financial activity than traffic laws discourage travel.  Rules exist for a reason, they’re not arbitrary, nor are they a sinister plot to hurt the economy.  The claim that government regulations hurt the economy is unfounded but is taken by anti-regulation conservatives as gospel.  A bank without regulations is called a loan shark.  A corporation without regulations is called a crime syndicate.  And an employee without protections like a government mandated minimum wage and strict anti-trust laws is called a slave.”And if every thing is a man-made concept that can be dispensed with at whim,” You’re putting words in my mouth, I didn’t dismiss anything on a whim or without argument.  You asked where the concept came from and I told you.”I can dispense with your right to tax me.” Yes, you can.  Unfortunately there are enough idiots and lunatics in this country that you might actually be able to get away with it.”I can, hypothetically speaking, develop nuclear weapons and threaten to destroy the entire US.” Yes you can, thanks to the tax dollars that were spent developing that technology and funding education for several centuries which lead to those discoveries.”My terms would be that no one can be taxed without permission and I cannot be put in jail. Or else every one dies.” And while you’re at it, nobody can be put in jail for not paying for a meal in restaurants.  Your little rule would do to civilization what mine would do to restaurants – end them entirely.”I don’t think that’s right to do, but since our concept of “what’s right and wrong” is just made up, I don’t really have any concerns about doing that sort of thing. Right?” Something being a manmade concept doesn’t mean it’s valid or invalid.  Mathematics is a human invention, it doesn’t stop it from being incredibly useful and it doesn’t mean 1 + 1 isn’t 2.  You lose the debate entirely so you just resort to strawman arguments.  Could you please be a pathetic sack of shit on someone else’s blog?  “Is that legitimate of me to do? Can I hold a gun to your head to make you stop voting to tax me? According to your fucked up mind it is.”Yes, all rules are evil, all democracy is evil.  The only moral forms of society are total anarchy or you as the emperor.  To quote george bush “If this were a dictatorship, it would be a heck of a lot easier, just so long as I’m the dictator.”Conservatives like you like to puff up their chests and act patriotic and talk shit about the constitution, but in reality they really, really hate democracy.  Their concept of tyranny is their guy not winning an election.  Just go join the fucking taliban already so you can be with people with the same values you have.

  4. agnophilo says:

    @tjordanm – “I personally believe humans can co-exist peacefully without causing each other harm in any way.” How does that work exactly?  And what about sadists and psychopaths?”I only believe that because I know things are NOT relative.”They are and they aren’t depending on what you mean by relative.  Killing 10 people is relatively worse than killing 2 people and killing someone by accident is relatively better than killing someone on purpose for no good reason (at least morally).  And motion is relative and size is relative and time is relative.  But moral relativism in the sense that all ideas are equally valid (which is what you were just arguing with me) is bullshit.  Morality stems from the intrinsic qualities of things, from human nature and the properties of the things around us.  Giving a child a teddy bear and giving them a live hand grenade to play with are not equally good or bad because of what the properties of those things are and the potential consequences.  I think you would agree that letting a murderer go free is equally bad for much the same reason.  Because of the harm it will potentially do.  And you probably agree that we are better of with rules and laws about murder and to restrict other harmful actions.  So why the fuck is restricting harmful corporate actions evil?

  5. agnophilo says:

    @tjordanm – Yeah that’s why cigarette companies and columbian drug cartels are out of business.  Along with exxon after that oil spill and walmart for outsourcing jobs.Companies with harmful practices always go under as a result by the wisdom of the almighty market.  All hail the divine market!

  6. tjordanm says:

    @agnophilo – My statement was a generalization that didn’t account for psychopaths and criminals. I never advocated no government. Just enough government for police and military to act as retaliation and defense forces. “So why the fuck is restricting harmful corporate actions evil?” Define harmful. Do you mean pouring cancer-causing chemicals in ground water? Yea, the plant manager and anyone else should be put in jail and the company liable to pay for damages and clean up.If you mean failing to pay a full tax bill, which doesn’t hurt anyone any more than not donating to a charity, then there’s no cause to retaliate.

  7. tjordanm says:

    @agnophilo – Tobacco companies sold before they knew it was harmful. There was a period when they had sufficient scientific data to know better and still marketed the product as harmful–mass lying would be punishable. Selling tobacco after they acknowledge it is dangerous and the buyers know it is dangerous, there’s nothing to do about it–committing suicide is not illegal. Tobacco had demand, it would never go under.An oil company that spills oil can be forced to clean it up. That doesn’t put them out of business, though, because they still have demand and likely cash reserves. Walmart is free to outsource dumbshit jobs…didn’t know they did…but if they do, that’s their choice and their freedom to do so. Outsourcing jobs is not morally or politically wrong.I don’t see your point at all.

  8. tjordanm says:

    @agnophilo – Traffic laws don’t prevent traffic, but that’s not the point. Who is the government to regulate traffic? Roads, in an ideal society, would be privately built and they can delegate that to government–that’s the only way. EVERYTHING has to be justified. You can’t just say “we need rules so that X doesn’t happen”–that’s not justification.”And while you’re at it, nobody can be put in jail for not paying for a meal in restaurants.  Your little rule would do to civilization what mine would do to restaurants – end them entirely.”Ever notice how dumb fucks can’t detect sarcasm?”Something being a manmade concept doesn’t mean it’s valid or invalid.”Oh, so rights can be a valid, although man-made concept? And how do you know 1 + 1 = 2? I was a math major, and we had to prove that.How are rights valid? If 1 + 1 = 2 and that’s valid, then how is it valid that you have a right to tax people??

  9. agnophilo says:

    @tjordanm – “My statement was a generalization that didn’t account for psychopaths and criminals.” Generalizations and absolutes are almost always wrong.”I never advocated no government.” You said you want the tax rate to be zero, so by definition you did.”Just enough government for police and military to act as retaliation and defense forces.”So spending money on programs for the common good is evil unless it’s the police and military?  Why?  Because you think those programs are good ideas?  We live in a democracy where we all get together and decide as a group what we think is and isn’t a good idea.  If you want to decide all policy yourself go find yourself a little island and set yourself up as emperor.And the purpose of the police isn’t retaliation.”Define harmful. Do you mean pouring cancer-causing chemicals in ground water? Yea, the plant manager and anyone else should be put in jail and the company liable to pay for damages and clean up.  If you mean failing to pay a full tax bill, which doesn’t hurt anyone any more than not donating to a charity, then there’s no cause to retaliate.”So it’s harmful to dump harmful chemicals in the ground water because that hurts people and we should have a government agency to stop that and punish those who do it – but it doesn’t hurt someone to not pay your fair share to fund that agency, which stops them from keeping people from dumping toxic chemicals into the ground water.  Good logic.In your utopian police state where the only government is the police and military, is paying taxes to fund the police and military optional?

  10. agnophilo says:

    @tjordanm – “Tobacco companies sold before they knew it was harmful. There was a period when they had sufficient scientific data to know better and still marketed the product as harmful–mass lying would be punishable. Selling tobacco after they acknowledge it is dangerous and the buyers know it is dangerous, there’s nothing to do about it–committing suicide is not illegal. Tobacco had demand, it would never go under.”It’s in demand because it’s addictive, and they have engineered it to make it more and more addictive, adding tar and other chemicals to the mix over the years.  So pushing drugs is okay?  In your police state crack and meth will be available in every corner store?  Until a generation or two passes and people can’t read or do math because of no public schools I mean.  And you dodged my point, which is that a company making a bad or harmful product doesn’t automatically mean the magic market will drive them out of business.”An oil company that spills oil can be forced to clean it up. That doesn’t put them out of business, though, because they still have demand and likely cash reserves.”Again, ignoring the point.”Walmart is free to outsource dumbshit jobs…didn’t know they did…but if they do, that’s their choice and their freedom to do so. Outsourcing jobs is not morally or politically wrong.”It is the use of child and near slave labor which makes local companies unable to compete and forces them eventually to erode worker protections to survive, slowly making every economy into a third world country and lowering the standard of living of everyone.  Yeah nothing immoral about that.The problem with the free market is that it favors whatever makes the most money for the people at the top of the company – letting your workers have breaks doesn’t make more money, or retirement benefits or safe working conditions or a health plan or overtime or hazard pay or even a day off ever.  All of those mean the company makes less money.  So in a purely free market the company that works it’s employees literally to death will have the edge and will dominate the market.  The only way to fix it is by evil government stepping in and requiring businesses to pay their workers a living wage and give them a break and prohibiting things like working people more than a certain number of hours.  The free market didn’t end slavery, it invented it.  And it took big bad evil socialist government to put an end to it which is why you aren’t working a 30 hour shift in a coal mine somewhere.”I don’t see your point at all.”You aren’t too bright then, what can I say.

  11. agnophilo says:

    @tjordanm – “Traffic laws don’t prevent traffic, but that’s not the point.” But they’re evil commie laws, how can they not have a harmful effect on what they regulate?”Who is the government to regulate traffic?” The will of the people made manifest via the democratic process?  You get that democracy means self-government, right?  WE are the government.  We just stopped learning about that part because they got rid of civics courses and we’ve been asleep at the wheel ever since.”Roads, in an ideal society, would be privately built and they can delegate that to government–that’s the only way.” You get that that’s how it works now, right?  The government just pays private contractors to build roads, and courthouses and to teach kids and pick up trash etc, etc.”EVERYTHING has to be justified. You can’t just say “we need rules so that X doesn’t happen”–that’s not justification.”I agree, that’s why we discuss, debate, have these things called elections etc.”Ever notice how dumb fucks can’t detect sarcasm?”What exactly was sarcastic?”Oh, so rights can be a valid, although man-made concept? And how do you know 1 + 1 = 2? I was a math major, and we had to prove that.”I just said that, didn’t I?  And you take one of something, then add another and count them you dumbshit.  Either you’re the stupidest person on the planet or you’re just being disingenuous and contrary to be an asshole.”How are rights valid? If 1 + 1 = 2 and that’s valid, then how is it valid that you have a right to tax people??”As I said, you have two options – go live naked in a cave and pay no taxes, or live in a civilization and pay the taxes that the maintenance of a civilization requires.  If you ask me why one of those options is better than the other you’re a goddamn idiot.  You just want to have your cake and not pay for it too, which makes you a selfish goddamn idiot.And by the way did you read some ayn rand novel or something because I hear the exact same bullshit coming from many conservatives these days.  Where did you get these ideas, fox news, a book, where?

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