“True” Christianity.

I just read a blog about whether people are “true” christians and this was my commentary.  I think it says everything that needs to be said about the matter:

“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.  For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” 

– Jesus 

“You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’ But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also. And if anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, hand over your coat as well. If anyone forces you to go one mile, go with them two miles. Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.” 

– Jesus, a few lines down in the same chapter of the same gospel telling people to ignore something from the old laws before the earth ended or anything was “finished”. 

Jesus wasn’t a “true” christian.

About agnophilo

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39 Responses to “True” Christianity.

  1. SisterMae says:

    The word Christian means believer in Christ, Jesus is the true some of God, born in flesh as a Jew…He was born so we would not be under old testament law he is the new beginning he died to atone for our sins….I know you will have something to say to show my beliefs are moot but that is ok I am not here to change your mind or witness…

  2. @SisterMae – I was always taught that Christian means Christlike. 

  3. SisterMae says:

    @Dame_Delirium – I will answer your thoughts on my own blog so I do not hijack his

  4. @SisterMae – LoL, it was a simple memory, it wasn’t about you at all. I just thought maybe you’d heard that. There IS a message button you know. You can just speak directly to me privately haha.

  5. davidian says:

    An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth was a commandment??

  6. The only thing an atheist can do with Christianity is hallucinate about it.  Hallucinating Christianity should be the title of this post.

  7. musterion99 says:

    Jesus wasn’t a Christian? lol – This is precisely why atheists should stay far away from acting like they’re bible scholars. Jesus said that “he” would fulfill the law, which is the new covenant, which happened because he walked a perfect sinless life here on earth, Everything was accomplished by Jesus regarding the law. We can’t keep the law which is why Jesus’ righteousness is imputed to us. The second quote is part of the new covenant. It’s easy to try to make something seem contradictory when you don’t take scriptures in the context of all of scripture. You need to give up your days as a bible scholar.

  8. Hunt4Truth says:

    Did you not ever put out there that the universe is imperfect and that it only works to support what we know as life really because it is imperfect? I don’t remember you doing that… think about it if you have time.Do you consider yourself a biblical scholar?@musterion99 – well put — about the law and the new covenant.

  9. My son was Jesus in a children’s production of Godspell.  BOTH of those scriptures are in that play and I didn’t realize the complete contradiction until now.  

  10. PPhilip says:

    @Hunt4Truth -I am sure you do have a lot of reservations and observations that you could have put out into the comment. Sometimes I put out too much and it is hard to take them back in. Probably the punchline is that Christ wasn’t a true Christian and with the way that the “political war is going” the use of the term true Christian is a mocking of the hard line evangelicals who have pushed the Obama was not born in America ilk( and their mocking that Obama is not christian too)@ImNotUglyIJustNeedLove –  Hallucination. Interesting since you mock progressives and liberals. Nice political tools you are using today.I am accusing you of being politcal. There appears that you are not making an attempt at understanding. Has Jesus ever accused anyone of hallucinating? I don’t think so.

  11. @PPhilip – There is nothing wrong with being political.Aristotle believed that man developed to his greatest potential through politics.What you probably mean is to say is that I am being biased.Of course I am!  Everyone is biased.But we use systematic thinking to temper and direct our bias toward reason.What I mean by “hallucinate an alternative reality” is to make flagrant, shameless, copious use of logical fallacies to make it look like overpowering personal bias possesses some sort of objective truth.The postmodern thinker, progressives, liberals and atheists are slaves to their personal bias because they construct their personal truth from their personal opinion.

  12. Hmm well Christian means “Christ follower” so if you’re a Christian you’re supposed to follow Christ, but Jesus also said that the Father was in Him. John 14:10Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.John 14:11Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the works themselves.If you’re implying that the God of the OT is different from the God of the NT, then those verses that Jesus says imply that God the Father (OT) was in Him, even though Jesus is His Son, which can be confusing but the Trinity thing. XD lol

  13. John 1:17For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.Jesus was offering grace to the people that people were longing for. Because all they had ever known was the Law but God made a new way.

  14. Aloysius_son says:

    I am still trying to decide if I want to be more like Jesus or more like Christ.

  15. Hmmm… are these verses really that difficult to reconcile?  The first section tells us that we need to take our responsibilities very seriously, the second that we should not be overly assertive of our rights.  Yes, the same law gives us both rights and responsibilities.  But all people have a natural bias to emphasize the responsibilities of others and overlook their own responsibilities, or to emphasize their own rights and overlook the rights of others.  Christ is telling us to be ready to do everything that we should, but to be slow in attacking others for what they have left undone.Is this a double standard?  Is He applying the Law inconsistently?  By an extreme literal reading of this passage one could say so.  But in light of the context of His other teachings it seems that He is really attacking our natural bias and hypocrisy by saying that we are the ones who have the double standard — so we should not seek loopholes in the Law to let ourselves off the hook, while seeking the fineries of it to condemn another.So, we can’t demand the benefit of the doubt for ourselves, while denying it to our opponents. BOTH of us should follow the Law.  But even if someone else is clearly doing wrong, that doesn’t mean that we have to demand a right for vengeance and/or should take matters into our own hands.  Usually doing so cycles into chaos and disorder, not justice.Thus one who loves God and His Holy Law should show it by scrupulously obeying it himself, yet being willing to overlook the infringements of others, granting them mercy, giving them the benefit of the doubt, being slow to judgment.  These are all very common themes in the Bible. To one who wants to see there is no difficulty seeing.But, some things are easier said than done.  So any honest person will readily admit that when they have been hurt all too often they don’t want to forgive the other person, they don’t want reconciliation, they want to see the other punished.  We find these teachings difficult to accept since we want to mete out judgment ourselves.  We want justice on our terms.  Yet instead of showing respect for God and His Holy Law most such attempts end up subverting true justice — ultimately showing our doubt that God is truly sovran and just and showing that while we want mercy for ourselves, we don’t want it shared with our enemies.  This is a failure to understand God, His Law, His Love, His grace.  This is a serious failure with us.  We need to examine ourselves, for our anger does not often result in righteousness.Difficult to understand and reconcile?  No.  Difficult to get thru our hard hearts which want a double standard of easy for us but hard for others?  Oh yeah.  And that explains Christ’s emphatic tone: He is trying to convince us that we need to do that which is unnatural.  His remarks convict us that even when we have done nothing to wrong our brothers we must not allow our hearts to want them wronged.

  16. layhomeopath says:

    The reference to heaven and earth passing away is apocalyptic/metaphorical language, used on other occasions in the major and minor prophets of the Old Testament.  It’s similar to our expressions ‘rock my world” or an idea/event that shook the universe, or ‘blew me away.”

  17. nww12973 says:

    @ItsWhatEyeKnow – What ‘contradictions’?Atheists love to say things like this. They completely discount the fact that GOD said in the Old Testament, and Jesus (the Son of God) in the New….that a new covenant was made with his crucifixion, and resurrection. You can believe it or not, but it is written….Yes, this was prophesied in the Old Testament and came about in the New.Belief in Christ is therefore necessary for salvation, instead of strict adherence to only the commandments (the ten originals), or Old Testament (Hebrew) law.There are no ‘contradictions’. I hope that helped. Lol, seriously, I do. – N

  18. @AnyasFriendMe – Good point my friend. Two other points seen in the old testament indicates there are only two parties allowed to wreak vengeance. These are the government and God himself. It is mine to avenge; I will repay.In due time their foot will slip;their day of disaster is nearand their doom rushes upon them. [God talking]Deuteronomy 32:35But you must not eat meat that has its lifeblood still in it.And for your lifeblood I will surely demand an accounting. I will demand an accounting from every animal. And from each human being, too, I will demand an accounting for the life of another human being. “Whoever sheds human blood,    by humans shall their blood be shed;for in the image of God    has God made mankind.”Genesis 9:4-6As for the idea of false Christians versus true Christians. Given these passages quoted and passages like the parable of the debtor, the sermon on the mount, and the golden rule. I would say true Christians, those following the teachings of Christ and the apostles, are probably about 1% of the Christian population in the US. Most Christians barely read their Bibles much less pray. It is no wonder 80% of youth growing up in the church fall away. They don’t see church people taking the Bible seriously in practical terms or in historical terms. If the Bible is not true in either case why read it? Most churches if this were true would be the equivalent of a book club that only reads one book. Who would want that if the book is just a clever work of fiction? 

  19. jmallory says:

    Jesus summed up the law into two rules: Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind, and Love your neighbor as yourself. Jesus said that all the law and the prophets hang on these two verses. If you follow these, you are keeping the law, as far as Jesus understands the law. Jesus was a devout Jew who challenged people’s motivations. He showed them that they were focusing on the wrong things, and at the heart of the law is love and faith. So Jesus was correct. The law didn’t disappear. It was condensed.

  20. Hunt4Truth says:

    @PPhilip – I did look at the post at your blog. I think Mark was clear about what he’s said here. I didn’t really know what to make of your posting there. Actually, as to what you said about my comment, I’m not sure what that means either. As for loving, that is  difficult by itself. As for accepting that others are Christian–it isn’t my business. Now, make a stupid move on the road and I’ll be gesturing and maybe even muttering… but I’m accepting about that Christians fail and I think my God is too; as long as they repent.

  21. kk_grayfox says:

    The messiah was expected to teach his Torah to the Jews. Hence why he says things like “you have heard it said….but I say to you…”.A Christian, by the Bible’s own definition, is a disciple of Christ. Jesus can’t therefore be a Christian.

  22. agnophilo says:

    @SisterMae – I too was always told christian means one who follows the teachings of jesus.  The point is that the bible is such a catch-all that it can be applied to almost anything, and anyone can be said to not follow it.  And say whatever you want wherever you want, you’re not “hijacking” anything.  The comment section is for conversation.@Dame_Delirium – As was I.  For some sects it’s all about “what’s in it for me?”@davidian – It was several, and like the golden rule it was in the code of hammurabi before the old testament.@musterion99 – “Jesus wasn’t a Christian? lol – This is precisely why atheists should stay far away from acting like they’re bible scholars.” I was making a broader point actually, but you seem to have missed it.”Jesus said that “he” would fulfill the law, which is the new covenant, which happened because he walked a perfect sinless life here on earth, Everything was accomplished by Jesus regarding the law. We can’t keep the law which is why Jesus’ righteousness is imputed to us.” Setting aside that that makes no sense, you’re saying the old testament went out the window the second jesus was born?  I was always told his death was the sacrifice that ushered in the “new covenant” (which by the way jesus never talked about and was an invention of those who came after him).”The second quote is part of the new covenant.” All of it is.  Well, according to your theology anyway.”It’s easy to try to make something seem contradictory when you don’t take scriptures in the context of all of scripture. You need to give up your days as a bible scholar.”I never said I was a biblical scholar, nor are the people who run around all day saying who is and isn’t a “real” christian.  And I could’ve posted the whole chapter and it would still be a contradiction.  Jesus was saying to follow all of the old laws until the end of heaven and earth, then (according to his biographers) contradicting them moments later.  The point being that anyone can be called a “false” christian and that there is no such thing as a “true” christian, it’s all a matter of which bits you follow and which bits you don’t.@Hunt4Truth – “Did you not ever put out there that the universe is imperfect and that it only works to support what we know as life really because it is imperfect? I don’t remember you doing that… think about it if you have time.”It sounds like something I would say, I might’ve blogged about it a long time ago.  Does this count?”Do you consider yourself a biblical scholar?”Not remotely, but, as I said in the above response, neither are the people going around saying who is and isn’t a “true” christian.@ItsWhatEyeKnow – I know what you mean – when I found out the four gospels each have a different version of jesus’ last words ( 1) cries out in pain, 2) “it is finished” 3) father, into your hands I commit my spirit” and 4) “father, father why have you forsaken me? – which is also one of the psalms from the old testament I recently discovered).  Anyway, when I found that out I realized I had been taught all of them at different points.  Ironic, no?@neverendingstardust – That doesn’t solve the problem, he’s still contradicting himself.@Aloysius_son – ?@AnyasFriendMe – “Hmmm… are these verses really that difficult to reconcile?”If you take them as meaning what they actually say, yes.  To quote george bernard shaw: “No man ever believes that the Bible means what it says: He is always convinced that it says what he means.”  You take great liberties with the passages, reading all kinds of general lessons into them and ignoring the actual words.  Jesus spoke in parables and metaphors often, but those passages do not appear to be an example of that.  “follow every letter of the old laws” and “this part of the old laws is rubbish, don’t follow that” are contradictory.@layhomeopath – How do you know you’re not just believing that because otherwise many prophecies would be invalidated?  How can you know what they meant to say better than we can by just reading it?@nww12973 – Oh so jesus had been crucified at that point had he?@jmallory – That’s like saying mein kamf was “condensed” into “treat each other with courtesy and respect” and the two are in no way in conflict.  Use whatever euphamism you want, contradictions like the one I gave can be found throughout all of scripture.  You cannot “condense” “set thy neighbor on fire” into “love thy neighbor”.

  23. agnophilo says:

    @kk_grayfox – I was making a point about hypocrisy and the nature of scripture an everyone’s hung up on semantics.

  24. davidian says:

    @agnophilo – I’m confused…  Which commandment does it correspond with?  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten_Commandments

  25. agnophilo says:

    @davidian – I think you meant to give this link.  The idea that only ten commandments in the OT were ever valid is something christians tell themselves so they can ignore the other 603.

  26. davidian says:

    @agnophilo – so are you judging those christians and casting the first stone?  i don’t think they’re necessarily ignoring them, but simply abiding by the fact that jesus represents new salvation that comes with just confessing with your mouth and believing with your heart.  

  27. jmallory says:

    @agnophilo – I also didn’t deny that it contradicts. It was meant to contradict (See @kk_grayfox‘s comment)

  28. jmallory says:

    Also, I’m not Jewish and shouldn’t be bound to Jewish law.

  29. agnophilo says:

    @davidian – “so are you judging those christians and casting the first stone?”  First of all it’s a blog, I’m hardly putting anyone to death.  And second of all I’m actually defending the christians being called un-christlike by showing the fallacy of treating the bible as though it’s consistent and can be followed in the first place.”i don’t think they’re necessarily ignoring them, but simply abiding by the fact that jesus represents new salvation that comes with just confessing with your mouth and believing with your heart.”You see what you just did there?  Glossed over more than 75% of scripture.@jmallory – That makes no sense whatsoever.@jmallory – Whether you’re jewish is irrelevant to whether jesus contradicted himself or scripture contradicts himself.  It’s like saying “jesus didn’t contradict himself because I’m hindu so I don’t follow the new testament.”  And jesus instructed you to follow the old laws and prophets until heaven and earth disappeared, so yeah.

  30. jmallory says:

    @agnophilo – He instructed us to Love our neighbor and to love God… the summation of the law and the prophets. So he is right. Not one stroke of the law will disappear until all things are accomplished. We are still bound to that summation. It’s absolutely clear.Also, let me backtrack a bit… When I said that the point was to contradict, what I was saying was Jesus’ words, “You’ve heard that it was said…, but I tell you…” Anyway, you will believe what you want, contrary to that which  is clearly there. If my atheist new testament professor could see it, surely you could.

  31. @agnophilo – you said: “this part of the old laws is rubbish, don’t follow that”, yet you said that I “take great liberties with the passages”.  If you take the first section of the chapter seriously, then you could not also accept your summary of the second section.  If it doesn’t make sense, then you need to turn to other scriptural texts and concepts to make sense of it. Christ consistently teaches that we should willingly take great pains to treat our brothers fairly in all matters, yet we should also willingly accept the pain of being wronged by unfair treatment from our brothers.  In love — which is the essence of the Law, not the opposite — we treat others the way we would like to be treated, not necessarily the way that they deserve.  There is no contradiction.  We show that we despise the Law when we break it, but when we are willing to deny our rights under it we show our willingness to be bound by the Law of love — which is the ultimate expression of the Law, again, not its opposite.

  32. kk_grayfox says:

    @agnophilo – But it IS a semantic issue! 😛 (if we’re talking about what Jesus meant and how we interpret it)But if you’re trying to point out that Christians sometimes do a ‘plain’ reading of the Scripture and other times try to understand the ‘deeper’ meaning, in other words read it to suit their needs, then I’m with you, bro. That does indeed happen a lot.

  33. tau_1 says:

    actually your quote does not make sense. When defining a word, the simple fact is truth in individual and being Child like is an example of this truth.In the Bible in Luke 6:43-48 you can see truth in what Jesus teach about the Christian and fruit that the product of our life THE FRUIT reflects the thoughts of our mindNow is terms of what is a true Christian Jesus expect us to have good fruit because it is essential to withstanding the storms of lifeThe Sermon on the Mount have a lot to do with fruit because Jesus explains the extraordinary life He is looking for in His followers and then essentially says if your mind is right your actions will be rightLast in John 15:L1-4 is the source of our fruitREMAINING IN JESUS

  34. Lovegrove says:

    @jmallory – @agnophilo – Jmallory! You wrote a rebuttal post if agnophilo’s post and did not reference him. If dine deliberately that is disingenuous and unworthy of you.

  35. jmallory says:

    @Lovegrove – You never used to troll me. What changed?

  36. musterion99 says:

    @Lovegrove @jmallory – – Agno does it all the time. He writes rebuttal posts without a link to the original or even telling who wrote it.

  37. mhmd1434 says:

    ((( O people Say No God But Allah, Achieve Eternal Salvation ))) ” Laa illaha illa lah .” (There is none worthy of worship except Allah.) ( I bear witness that there is none worthy of worship except Allah and I bear witness that Muhammad is His servant and messenger ) http://aslam-ahmd.blogspot.com( Introduction to Islam )

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