Gay Marriage.

I got a bit touchy when talking to someone about gay marriage and called them out a bit on their bigotry.  I haven’t done that in awhile (in general, not just gay-bashers). I thought I’d share my last comment:

 

Actually I showed the objective logical fallacies in your argument and factual inaccuracies in your understanding of the role of science. Open up a science textbook and see if you can find anything about morals and how to live your life. That’s not what science does. Expecting it to be that is akin to demanding a hammer be used to screw in a screw. It’s just not what it’s for.

As for the “fags” comment, the point was that you are not being genuine – if you did believe that anyone who can’t reproduce is sinning for getting married or having sex you would criticize straight people who do either. You won’t. I know you won’t. Gay-bashing christians never apply their standards to straight people. In christian america a straight man can beat his wife, rape his children, get divorced and remarried 20 times, murder his entire family, then get re-married to a total stranger by an elvis impersonator in a drive-through wedding chapel in vegas and not one christian in the whole damn country will even suggest that he lose the right to get remarried from his prison cell. But two gay people love each other and want to make a commitment and they’re “destroying the sanctity of marriage”.

Not every anti-gay christian is a hypocrite, very rarely one will oppose premarital sex, divorce etc with the same vigor. But not you, you are a hypocrite.

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About agnophilo

Nerd.
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19 Responses to Gay Marriage.

  1. You have such awesome perspective. I believe certain things are right or wrong, but you go so much deeper than that with the positions you take. Thank you for sharing.

    • agnophilo says:

      Thank you, that is very kind of you to say. : ) I try to understand… everything. It’s kind of like trying to drink an ocean. I know I’ll never accomplish it, but (unlike the ocean example) it’s very fun and worthwhile all the same.

  2. sherrivalence says:

    But what about gay people who are against same-sex marriages?
    like these people:
    Eve Tushnet: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/05/us/05beliefs.html?_r=3&
    Doug Mainwaring: http://www.thepublicdiscourse.com/2013/03/9432/

  3. woohoo says:

    here’s a sincere argument against so-called gay marriage

    • agnophilo says:

      Just so we’re clear do you think those arguments are ridiculous or not ridiculous?

      • woohoo says:

        Did I sound sarcastic? I didn’t mean to. The Catholic radio and EWTN keep saying “so-called gay marriage” so it kinda stuck on me. I guess from now on I should just say “gay marriage.” And no I don’t think they are ridiculous, though i do think they’re not complete. but then again, he only had 10 minutes.

        • agnophilo says:

          I think they’re ridiculous. Or more specifically, incredibly weak and hypocritical. Marriage is for procreation so gay people, who can’t procreate should not be allowed to get married. So neither should senior citizens, right? Impotent men and sterile women need to be barred from marriage at once, or society will come crashing down. And children need two parents, a mother and a father according to “studies”, so we should do everything we can to prevent single parents from raising their children. And I’m sure the tens of thousands of children who go un-adopted every year and grow up in the system with zero parents feel so lucky they didn’t have a loving family that didn’t match his exact formula. Etc, etc. There isn’t a word that came out of his mouth that holds water.

          • woohoo says:

            He did an “interview” in piers morgan live about this and he says that it’s okay for senior citizens to get married since men are fertile in the entirety of their lives and if they are faithful to their wives they are not creating fatherless children.

            and sterile straight couples can get married because they can just adopt children.

            even though he didn’t quote a specific study i think it’s still valid to say that children need a mother and a father. i’m not saying single parents are raising bad children, but how should a single mother teach her son how to be a man?

            i think the point he was making is that the marriage exists for raising children, not because people have really strong feelings for each other. and for couples living together who wants the legal benefits that come from marriage, he suggests that we just change the law pertaining those benefits since 2 sisters instead of a lesbian couple living together with a child would need those to.

            • agnophilo says:

              “He did an “interview” in piers morgan live about this”

              You quote things that make them sound sarcastic which don’t make sense as being sarcastic, which was part of why I was confused about your initial comment.

              “and he says that it’s okay for senior citizens to get married since men are fertile in the entirety of their lives and if they are faithful to their wives they are not creating fatherless children.”

              Men are not fertile the entirety of their lives, so already the premise is false and the logic is invalid, and again impotent men should be barred from marriage?

              “and sterile straight couples can get married because they can just adopt children.”

              And so can gay couples.

              “even though he didn’t quote a specific study i think it’s still valid to say that children need a mother and a father.”

              I am fairly sure the scientific consensus on this issue is that gay parents don’t on average do any better or worse than straight parents in terms of the emotional well-being of the child. And while I agree that a child needs role models I don’t think they necessarily have to have a penis to be a good role model. Nor btw do they even have to be a parent.

              “i’m not saying single parents are raising bad children, but how should a single mother teach her son how to be a man?”

              As a man raised by a single mother I can say that having a dick absolutely does not qualify you to be a parent or a good role model, and that often no parent or one parent is greatly to be desired over many of the parents out there. The last day I saw my father was a welcome release and the only thing he ever taught me of any value was how not to behave, raise a child or live my life. I think I turned out pretty well, but I think everyone has hangups and every parent messes up to some extent. Life and raising a child both fit squarely into the “do the best you can and hope it works out” category, we go through them for the most part feeling through the darkness with both hands trying to figure out the best path to take. Guys like this prey on that uncertainty with the promise of easy answers and simple solutions to complex and nebulous problems. The idea that every kid having a dad will solve things like crime and poverty that have existed throughout history is as silly as the idea that every kid being given a lollypop once a month will fix the US education system. Wouldn’t it be nice if the world was that simple? But it’s not. And if the government is going to be in the business of deciding who is and isn’t fit to be a parent based on demographics and studies I’m sure minorities probably perform on average with varying degrees of success too – if a study showed that black parents tend to be less good parents than white parents should black people have their babies taken away or their marriage rights suspended? Should we penalize entire groups because of vague statistical averages? How would that be less institutionalized bigotry than what this man is proposing? And this is assuming his non-cited studies are scientifically valid and empirically accurate, which they probably aren’t.

              “i think the point he was making is that the marriage exists for raising children, not because people have really strong feelings for each other.”

              Actually marriage has existed for many reasons, it has served many social and legal functions ranging from establishing who inherits someone’s estate to being a literal barter contract where a man buys a woman from her father (historically and biblically the woman has no say in the decision). Marriages have also been polygamous historically more often than monogamous. The idea of appealing to tradition (especially ancient tradition) is absurd if you know enough about history. It’s only been maybe 50 years that a woman could legally charge her husband with rape in most states, and before that rape was a property offense – the illegal use of another man’s property. Rape was punished less severely than stealing another man’s horse. In the bible if a man rapes a woman the punishment is marriage (which is especially nice for the woman). And if the woman refuses to marry her rapist she is to be put to death as a fornicator. So yeah, lets get some of that wonderful, enlightened traditional marriage.

              “and for couples living together who wants the legal benefits that come from marriage, he suggests that we just change the law pertaining those benefits since 2 sisters instead of a lesbian couple living together with a child would need those to.”

              That is literally all that gay people are after, equal treatment under the law. Marriage as a religious institution is the business of churches, but tying inheritance and taxes and adoption and insurance and so many other things to marriage severely limits the rights and legal protection of anyone you prohibit from getting married.

              • woohoo says:

                I said “interview” because Piers Morgan and Suze Orman were kind of ganging up on him and just bashed him for his beliefs.

                I’m sorry if I offended you about the single mother comment. I didn’t mean to imply that all people raised by a single parent are turning into criminals. I didn’t exactly got it from Anderson. When he said that “how can we insist that fatherhood is essential if we keep making them optional?” I just suddenly remembered when Oprah was on the Steve Harvey show and they were talking about Oprah’s new show (or maybe it was her new Life Class episode) called “Fatherless Sons.” Harvey was saying that moms can raise their children to be good citizens (he listed few good things actually I can’t remember all of them) and then Oprah kinda interrupted to say that but the mom is not a man. I didn’t watch all of the “Fatherless Sons” show (I think I just watched the last hour of part 1 and some clips on YouTube) but what Oprah and Yolanda was advising the single mothers was to at least let their children keep their relationships with their fathers, because according to Yolanda, they have holes in their hearts shape like their fathers.

                And I also read and learned from ethnic women’s studies that girls who grow up without fathers are more likely to be lured into prostitution (either force or just decide to choose that as a means for living) because since they never receive their fathers’ love, they try to seek love from other men.

                Again, I don’t mean to generalize because sometimes the fathers are drug addicts and in those cases it’s actually better for the kids to stay away.

                I do agree that having at least one parent is better than none at all, but I wouldn’t just jump into conclusion that the way nature design procreation between a man and a woman in human beings is arbitrary. I think there are psychological (or is anthropological more specific?) aspects to it.

                • agnophilo says:

                  The premise of the whole argument is that children of single parents are guaranteed to turn out bad – I do not accept this premise and it was never substantiated by this man. As far as having a father shaped hole, I do not. And as I’ve said, that the argument is about mistrust of gay people and not concern for children is evident by the fact that these arguments are only ever made against gay people and never made against straight people in similarly one-gender situations… ever.

                • agnophilo says:

                  And as far as a man and a woman being nature’s design, what did gay people come out of a factory? Homosexuality is part of the natural spectrum of human nature. As are btw bisexuals, hermaphrodites and others.

                  • woohoo says:

                    No I just meant that I think nature designed procreation only possible between a man and a woman because human beings need the complementary of the two. I did not mean to suggest that homosexuality is by choice. but there are some cases, just some NOT ALL, when trauma or rape causes someone to be gay and maybe transgender .

                    And as for Anderson not providing enough evidence, he only had 10 mins but he did mention a book he co-wrote with 2 other people (it’s called, “what is marriage, man and woman, a defense), i’m guessing they provide all the social sciences supporting their claim that they could find in there.

                    i did watch his other talks and debates on YouTube and in them he kinda just repeat what he said on that video but there was one in where he quotes from people who have traced the rise of poverty since the 70s (?) to the kids who have been the innocent victims of no-fault divorces (one of them is the author of fatherless america). because according to them, the government can’t replace real parents so we should promote having healthy and stable marriages.

                    Btw, I’m not telling you to go buy his book or watch all his talks on youtube. I didn’t even buy it and I’ve just finally gotten around to watching one of his 20 mins one. i have been just going around online to find secular stances against this issue.

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